Elizabeth asked an important question in the comment section that I thought was so interesting that I'd pose it to you, dear reader.
After you've responded, in the comment section, I'll lift them out and add them into a separate post. Not only is this much easier to read, it's more interactive and the more voices, the better.
So here's Elizabeth's question...which she addresses to everyone here:
Do you feel empty inside? I guess what I mean is that I feel like I am missing a piece of the puzzle, everyone else has it except me. I sometimes feel like an outsider or a fake trying to pass myself as a normal person. I don't think others can understand the hurt and pain we've been through. It feels so good to have feedback from this site. I glad I found you Nina, now I am not so lost!! get it??!!
Oh yeah, I get it!
I started this site because I felt lost and was trying to make sense of what had happened and I knew I couldn't do it alone. Yes, I did therapy and yes it did help and I learned some important coping tools, but I found that I needed to hear from others who went through the same thing.
Yes, I often feel empty and like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle. Like an outsider. And like a fake.
Here's some reasons why I think so. As yet another, separate post, I think we should address what we can do about it.
--We were not allowed to develop independently of our parents and what efforts we did make in that direction were discouraged.
In my case, my interests were mocked. I was mocked. I was mocked for being a book worm. For having opinions of my own that differed from theirs. For being "a little know it all" because I attended college. For having wild, thick hair so different from my adoptive mother (like I could do anything about that). For basically being me. Translation: I'm not okay the way I am. To survive, I had to pretend to be someone I was not. I had to wait until I moved far away to begin figuring out who I actually was. Which means I am a very, very late bloomer.
--We were not allowed our emotions. We were not allowed to be upset or needy. Maybe never.
My adoptive father says I was the perfect baby. He says I never, ever cried or whined. He says I wasn't like other obnoxious, needy babies. It never occurred to him that this wasn't normal. Why cry if there is no one to comfort you? If I was scared by a bully at school, I was blamed because I was a sissy. If I was scared by a dog, my mother would thrust me toward the dog and my father would make fun of me for being silly. If I fell down, I was told it didn't hurt, even when I broke my arm. When I cried because a boyfriend broke up with me, my mother slapped me and sent me to my room because I was being ridiculous and I'd scared her.
There was no one to talk to. No one to listen to us. No one to give us reassurance or constructive advice. We were either ignored or our worries and hurts minimized or dismissed. What else could we do, but deny those feelings of fear or discomfort or whatever. As a result, I suspect, we went numb. Other people around us, somehow, seem more real. We feel fake. Because we've had to fake.
--We don't feel loved or valued. Just needed.
This, perhaps, is one truth that's been the hardest to face. My narcissistic father is incapable of love. He doesn't know me. Not at all. How could he? I am 47 years old and have never, ever been allowed to finish a single sentence. Under torture, he couldn't tell you my favorite color, book, movie or anything about me except that I'm married and have two teenagers. When I was working, he only knew - vaguely - that I worked in news, but had no idea where or what I did. He does not value me...I'm just the person who will listen to him.
--Annihilation hangs over us.
If I dared to be me, my mother used the cold silent treatment that could last weeks. She stopped speaking to me for a year when I went away to college (because I betrayed her by leaving). The cold, silent treatment started when I was very young. If I didn't want to wear the clothes she picked out or wanted to have a sleepover or if I spent too much time reading and not paying attention to her. Which was terrifying. When you're little, you can't afford to have your mother freeze you out like that. It feels like death. (By the way, I had no idea this was abusive behavior until I read the work of Alice Miller, author of Drama of the Gifted Child.)
At first, my father seems like an affable, goofy, strange guy. But he's turned on every single person he's ever met. The second someone does something he doesn't like - meaning they demand their fair share of the conversation - he drops them and says all sorts of vicious things about them. I can't help but think if I really defy him in any way, he'll do that to me, too. And that's scary. As much as I can't stand the guy. Narcissistic or nightmare adoptive parents or not, they were the only parents I had.
Maybe we feel so empty and alone because...we WERE all alone most of our lives.
32 comments:
Oh Nina, Nina, Nina!!!
Your last post gave me goose bumps and brought tears to my eyes!!
I just CANNOT get over the similarities in our parents, these emotional sucking creatures must have a rulebook of some sort.
It took me a long time to find out who I am, a very late bloomer like you. We were robbed of our emotional developing years.
When I was being “disciplined” translation = emotionally broken down I used to escape deep within myself, it is hard to explain but I would just flip a switch & retreat deep inside my self, I would physically function, like a robot. Inside my cocoon I would listen to her rants & rages against me & reply to her in my head all the things I REALLY wanted to say but would not EVER NEVER dare for fear of the consequences. Oh how I remember her cold treatments, it made me feel like something was seriously defective with me. Why could I not please my own mother, what oh what was I doing wrong?
As far as your dad turning on people: my mom & step dad will befriend people, put them high up on a pedestal, strive to be like them and then………….for whatever reason these wonderful people who could do no wrong become vile & repulsive completely beneath them!!
Thank god we all turned out okay, I always fear that I maybe a partial narc!!
Elizabeth
Elizabeth,
What else could you do but tune out? You had no other protection.
I think we turned out okay, too. But I share your worry about having narcissistic traits, too. But I FIRMLY believe that it's possible to stop the cycle by becoming more mindful of our actions and behaviors. This is rather an exhausting exercise because it means constantly questioning. Over the years, I've learned to be a better listener. A better friend. And most importantly, a better person and mother by hanging around women whom I admire. It's like we have to relearn the basics. But at least it makes middle age a growth opportunity. Which makes sense for us late bloomers!!!
And yeah...we gotta get a hold of that secret handbook for narcissistic parents!
That high-pedestal one minute and then instant-devalue thing the next minute... used to make my head spin, but that's because I was applying rational thought to it. Took a very long time to realize it's all emotion, like a child in a death-scream temper tantrum one minute and suddenly all happy the next; completely living in the moment.
Thank you littlegirllost and Nina. That missing self growing up, I remember being mystified by the void within me and would go literally wandering around town by myself (and dog) for miles, kind of in an awake-dream daze. At least it made my dog happy to walk so much. So yeah, bloomed really late in college but even then it took a long time to catch up, still catching up. It's like I don't "get it" for the longest time until something click one day and then I get caught up with everyone else and even get abit ahead. But then I fall behind everyone else again and I have to study extra hard to repeat the cycle.
"He does not value me...I'm just the person who will listen to him."
Here is my typical phone call to Mom:
Me: Hi Mom.
Mom: me-me-me-what-I-did what-I-discovered me-me-me.
2 hours later.
Mom: Okay, bye.
And clunk goes the phone.
Here is my sister's typical call to Dad:
Sis: Hi Dad
Dad: Hi.
Sis: When is your plane coming in?
Dad: 8
Sis: PM or AM?
20 minutes later.
Sis: Dad, I'm not looking for the national secrets, I'm just trying to find out when you're arriving!
Are loners alone by choice or by character? My sister and I were also loners and eachother's best friend despite our parent's best attempt to turn us against one another since we were children. English is not our parent's first language and I think it saved us because the literal translation of their original language just sounds too funny/strange to be taken seriously. Still, even today my sister and I almost never discuss anything about ourselves in depth to one another because I think we were long conditioned to only think of our parents' need and emotional drama as they had complete and utter disinterest in us. And so it bled into the sister relationship, unable to bring ourselves into the sisterhood.
---Enilina (sorry, forgot my livejournal address)
I am the biological child of two, divorced narcissistic parents and one narcissistic sibling. I just stopped talking to my dad two weeks ago and haven't spoken to my sister in two+ years. I just reached my limit with them both. My mother died over a decade ago.
I was a pretty messed up individual and, needless to say, many of my close interpersonal relationships were problematic. I usually choose narcissistic partners apparently to recreate and fix my childhood. I had always felt like an alien visiting a hostile planet until recently.
I 've been in Pyschodynamic psychotherapy for one year and finally learned how to feel my own feelings. This continues to be quite an emotional rollercoaster for me. My shrink says that narcissistic people (me) often think of themselves as special or different from everybody else. Each week my shrink likes to report his opinion on the progress or maturity I've made in becoming less narcissistic myself; he thinks I have amazing insight and that he enjoys working with me. Even sticking with my shrink has been hard because I don't really know how to depend on or feel dependent on him even though I like and respect him. Thanks mom and dad!!
Also, my parents didn't think it necessary to meet or have relationships with my extended family so trying to learn about them in my 20's and 30's has been painful. The whole clan [paternal and maternal] is narcissistically inclined. I feel like God has played some horrible joke by placing me in this situation to see how damaged I could become. I'm learning to be happy about and to appreciate myself, my current friends while living in the present moment. None of it has been easy, but I guess no one said it would be. Finding my therapist and showing compassion towards myself has helped tremendously. I'm, also, glad to have found your site. It's so good to know I am not alone, which is a major problem for children of the self-absorbed. Many of us have some immature narcissistic traits but are not full blown patholgical or stable narcissists so there is hope for us yet:-)
Best,
Chi girl
I've pondered this empty feeling for such a long time. I sometimes look at my husband who was raised in a loving, kind family and I wonder what it feels like to be loved.
Oh sure my husband and son love me, and I certainly love them - but I have this tendency to feel emotionally detached. I know that I was not allowed any emotions when I was growing up.
When I first arrived at college I cried and cried because I had not been allowed to cry at my parents' house. It was scary then and I felt like I was never going to stop crying, but I realize now that it was probably a healthy thing.
I wanted to mention one other thing in regards to the "empty feeling". Many times as a child I would have these episodes of feeling as though I was trapped in a bubble and floating. I couldn't feel. and it felt as though no one could reach me. These episodes always happened when I was terribly depressed and they terrified me, because of course, I couldn't tell anyone what was happening. I know now that it was some sort of dissociative state, but at 15 years old I just thought that all the things my mom said about me were true.
Like Elizabeth, my mother would also rant and rave for hours to break me down emotionally, and I think this is connected to the dissociative states.
But you know, my mom says now what a wonderful child I was, and how I never gave her any trouble!
Great post, Nina!
Thanks for the nudge on my own blogging. Things have been extremely busy, both due to my mother's perpetual drama machine and my own life. But I have a new post, FINALLY.
THANKS
http://houseofbonsai.blogspot.com/2008/03/more-dispatches-from-afar.html
yes. Always the outsider. Always trying to fit in. Always never quite doing so. Always people pleasing and sacrificing of myself. That's probably the part that is missing.
ENILINA:
You asked about loners. Mmmm.
My father was a Major Loner, I suspect, because he did not get along with other people and demanded an enormous amount of attention. He never seemed to understand the recriprocity required for friendships.
I have friends, have had some for decades, but I also need a lot of alone time to "refuel" because I was raised an only child and it's hard for me to truly relax when I'm around other people.
So dunno. But if anybody else has ideas on this, I'd sure like to hear them!
I went to your LiveJournal address to see if you're blogging and it looks like you haven't updated for a bit...maybe I can't see it b/c I need to be a member or something?...do you plan on updating soon? I'd like to add you to my links if you do and, if so, how would you like me to describe your blog?
CHI GIRL:
Oh no. A narcissistically inclined family...on top of the parents and sib. Ouch.
I have a question for you.
Do YOU feel like you have some narcissistic traits...like feeling special, etc.? I know that having narcissistic parents impacts us all in different ways...depending on endless variables like temperament. I think I had some traits - definitely - when I was younger and was still stumbling around in a fog of denial and ignorance.
Like you, I was pretty messed up. Okay, VERY messed up...and picked self-centered boyfriends and friends. ARGH! But it's almost like we had no idea how to have a relationship where there wasn't a lot of drama or intensity. But being able to view ourselves somewhat objectively is an enormous help. And having insight - like you do - is a very, very wonderful thing because a true narcissists lacks insight or the ability to take responsibility for their behavior and actions and CHANGE.
Anyway...WELCOME!
LIESEL, I know that disassociative state you described all to well. It's almost like I can't let myself feel too much...or too happy...because it might be taken away from me. A sort of guilt for feeling good.
ELISE: Oh oh...the perpetual drama machine. It sounds like your mother is busy cranking it out! I'll check in and see what's going on!
Hi Nina!
Thanks for visiting my blog even though most of my entries were under "private" as I had a morbid fear of my parents suddenly becoming computer literate and magically recognizing themselves in the vast endless cyberspace. I've since gotten over that and everything is now readable once I remember how I still have journals and diaries lying around the house that my parents can pick up anytime and read my dastardly throughts about them, but they don't because of their complete and utter disinterest and indifference to their kids.
I can’t believe I’ve stumbled upon your blog… and then reading this… So much of your post rang true & through me like bells… and so many of these points you mentioned… are also symptomatic of Adult Children of Alcohols… and I don’t think I expected so much overlapping issues
Ie:
--Not allowed to develop independently For us… it was never about US… it was about the wants/needs/desires of the Alcoholic who was also the Narcissist in my family, my father. Thankfully my mother was a beacon in the darkness even if she was mentally beaten down… but for me, finding myself in a nurturing and healthy relationship and pregnant made me look at things in a whole new light & my anger flared & the died and I’ve effectively put him out of my emotional life… successfully
--We were not allowed our emotions. That numbness helped us survive. And I’m an academy award winner…. Or should be, I suspect this is a combo deluxe special… the alcoholic/narcissist really nailed it to us w/this one. I had a hard time controlling them when I was first living on my own… I’ve managed well as I’ve grown up (and away from the narc)
--We don't feel loved or valued. Just needed. This, doesn’t bother me so much… he CANT love anyone but himself, if he could... it might be different, but he can’t and I’m REALLY okay w/that… (I suspect that’s because of my mother’s amazing contribution in this regard)
--Annihilation hangs over us. I bore the brunt of the verbal assaults… and I’m happy to have done that and spared my siblings a lot of it. I also feel as though because so much of it was alcoholically fueled that I was able to categorize it to myself as drunk ranting and raving and ignore it…
This was a really wonderful blog to find, especially in what I’ll be dealing with this weekend… (my sons christening) and against better judgment I did invite him to our new home… to his grandsons christening… and he advised me today that he’s got no way of getting there (in an attempt to elicit my help & make it about HIM)… it didn’t phase me, or him when I re-outlined his options… he really wont be able to miss the opportunity to be in the midst of a party… so I imagine he’ll find a way (uggghh)
I’m sure I’ll be reading all of your posts… ALL weekend
i feel the exact same way. im going online and seeing if im the only one here. my dad is a narcissist. you dont know how much ive had to go through. hes physically and mentally insane, and hes done some physical insane things all the time. i just wish i knew someone in my life who i could talk to and who would understand. they would understand and not call me crazy. im not crazy- im the daughter of a crazy person!!
but anyway, thanx because you really helped. i just turned 13 and after going through this (and the ride isnt over), i feel like im 70.
I am so glad I stumbled upon this site. It's so good to know that I am not alone. I am a child of an narcissistic mother, who I have just broken all contact with, finally and for good. She is also an alcoholic. Luckily for me, I was raised by my wonderful grandmother. But my mother, who didn't want me lived nearby with my stepfather and five half-siblings. She did visit, and brought me off with her, it would only be to the pub, I might add. I also, until the age of 11, think my step-father was my real father. I was given his name to 'protect' me from bullies. It just made the situation all the more confusing. I went on to college and now have a successful career, whereas my siblings all dropped out of school and have no qualifications. She never used to send them to school because of her drinking.My mother, blows them up, saying they are better than me, and I am only a tramp, who did bad things in my past i.e. slept with loads of men (not true, not even near true!), took drugs, drank too much ( all exaggerated beyond belief. While I was doing all that, I managed to graduate from college, twice with honours!! I am getting married soon and couldn't bare the thought of her at the wedding, as she demands to be center of attention and gets aggressive and abusive if she isn't. In the last while also, she is telling my nan and aunts (who I am very close to), that she is my mother, she had me and I should treat her accordingly! That's great after all the hard work of raising me is over with! She has been sulking and bad mouthing me because I won't bring her bridal shopping with me, she doesn't deserve it and when she heard I brought my nan, she cracked and called me names and even started on my future husband. I had to say goodbye, the stress is all too much, I have wasted so much time hurt, confused and frustrated over her. I have enough. I might add she treats my siblings the same. She is now playing the martyr, drinking more and fighting with everyone around her! I am tired and I can't forgive and forget
Hi anonymous 13 year old another teenager! :) Lol why not I'll reveal my age. I am 16. It would be nice just to get together and talk. Wow 5 more years to go. 2 seems unbearable.
Garfield
Nina,
I really like your blog, I'm an avid reader of this one as well as "House of Bonsai" and "Narcissists Suck", I just wish I had found them sooner in life. I have an NDad who I just went no contact with and it feels great.
I know that empty feeling well, and I always feel like an outsider socially. I'm trying very hard to eliminate the few narcissistic traits I picked up, so that has been helpful.
One thing that really hit me with Elizabeth's question is that when I was young and living at home I used to get this overwhelming feeling of dread that would come over me for no apparent reason. I can only describe it as the most powerful, scary feeling that something horrible was going to happen and I didn't know what or why. I wouldn't be able to sleep because I couldn't shake this feeling. It would come over me out of nowhere and disappear within a few days, but I never have been able to explain it. Has this ever happened to anyone else?
Dee
I am sitting here just blown away after reading all of the comments. I was told last year in therapy that my mother sounded like a narcissist and I know that I underestimated the damage that she did. I knew she messed me up in a lot of ways, but reading all of the posts just brought me right back to my childhood. The mocking my mother used to do. She would make fun of us one second and then tell us we were the best one on the stage, or whatever it was. up and down up and down. Now I am in therapy and the therapist thinks that my mom might have been bipolar, too, so that's a nice double whammy. I mean, I look back and know that I was NEVER allowed to have my own opinion. Everything had to agree with her. And the thing about getting punished for crying about something; I totally get it. My mom did the same thing. One of my biggest feelings I have about growing up was that I was just so boring to my mother unless she was involved in whatver story I was telling or talking about. I can tell, too, when we talk now and she gets bored. She has these little things that she does. Like she gets distracted and I could say anything, like the house is on fire, and she would go, mmm mmmm, but not be listening. It is so hurtful. I am not able to say that I am okay with it today. I live 2000 miles away from her and its still messing me up. I had some relief when I first moved away ten years ago, but I had my son three years ago and I have been a mess since then. I think I am getting to the heart of some of it, though. One thing now is that I need to learn healthy ways to self soothe. My mother just wasn't capable of being there for me so I have never learned how to be there for myself. I learned to dissociate and I engage in some yucky behaviors when that happens. If anyone has any suggestions, I am eager to read them! I am glad to have found this site.
I just stumbled upon this site today. Thank God. I really always felt different, not belonging, alienated. My mother was a narcissist who sold me and knowingly ignored obvious rape and abuse fromher friends so that she would not have to be without. She has never acknowledged her wrongdoings and continues to be demanding, uncaring, and cruel. For many years I thought it was me...I thought I was unlovable and I sometimes feel emotionally detached from others. How do we begin to see ourselves through all of the chaos?
This was a great post. There are so many similarities to my family. I remember being very relieved to leave home for college, although I didn't realize at the time that my mother and stepfather were narcissists.
Like many others here, I was a late bloomer socially. I really felt like it took into my later 20s to learn to interact with people in a "normal" way. Meaning, in ways that I saw other easy going people were interacting with eachother, without strife and with confidence.
I am 39 now and met my current husband when I was 31. He comes from a family with a loving, involved mother (she has 4 children and is caring to all of them still). They have helped with my continued healing. Through all these years I have further reinforced that it is normal and desirable for a mother to care for her children (even adult children) and for her to *willingly* and I *stress* that word! do things for them to help out if they need it.
Like many others, I felt really devalued, I felt like any talking that I did about myself was "bragging" because my mother acted (and still acts) completely disinterested. My stepdad (esp.) and my mom both don't know much about me, what I do, where I work, etc. I don't even know if they remember the ages or names of my stepchildren. They refuse to ask anything about my family, including my husband. And when I talk to my mom, she rambles on and on about her various health problems (which I'm convinced stem from her poisonous disposition) and I've learned to not even try to volunteer information about myself. Well, except to talk about my toddler daughter. Actually, though, she seemed a little miffed when I interrupted her to mention something about her, too.
What helped me get over this horrid upbringing? Let me rephrase - because I don't know if you truly get over it completely. What helped me function more healthily in life and in relationships? I began therapy after college because I was always so anxious and emotionally distraught, esp. regarding relationships with men. I eventually went on anti-anxiety medication for a while, and I learned a lot about how to calm myself down.
I felt (at this point I was about 30 years old) that I was finally starting to feel like I was living like a healthier person.
Also, during this time, I limited contact with my mother and stepfather. It helped that I moved 300 miles away for school and decided to stay there. It was just poisonous to be around them, and this was before I even heard of narcissism. There was still nothing I could do right, and nothing that could garner any empathy.
I, too, look back and notice some narcissitic tendencies. I was an only child as well and have a tendency to be self-centered. I have been slowly breaking myself of these tendencies. It started with the therapy in my early 20s (where I cried and cried about the abuse)and it continues still. My husband has been great with helping me with the remaining pieces.
I can really say that I feel like a completely different person now compared to when I was living with my parents (and right after). When I talk to my mother now, her ways are so obnoxious. I've learned several years ago to just let her go on and not to try to change her.
One final thing: a major source of healing and insight lately has come from being a mom. I had my child at 37 and I am overwhelmed with love for her. While I can never have the mother I always longed for, I can give my daughter a loving, kind mommy who *willingly* sacrifices my time for her and things that bring her joy. I heal my own inner child when I love my own precious child.
I am 57yrs old and have survived a narcissistic mother! My mother spent her entire life belittling me and my father. Dad now has alzhiemers and is finally at peace from her. I disassociate as my form of survival and always have.My mother is now 85 and is classic in her actions.My husband is the third party who shields me from her constant onslaught of abuse.She is not capable of change because the narcissist will never accept that she is anything but perfect.The one thing I have learned from her is how I don't want to be,and I am constantly on guard and aware of how I enteract with my own adult children.Our children each deal with her differently because they each have different personalities,so I guess you could say we have all survived "the Narcissist"
Thank you for these posts. I am 62 years old and have been in therapy for 2 years. Within 2 months my therapist said my mother was a malignant narcissist. I thought I was making progress when I was 48 years old, I watched my mother hit my 8 year old nephew (her grandson) on Thanksgiving...It was an epiphany for me and my whole life flashed before me, and from that point on I disassociated from my mother...but only now through therapy am I deconstructing the malignant messages and learning to understand where my own out of control rages have come from. Also, I went into therapy with my husband over sexual issues only to realize I had repressed a lesbian rape from when I was 19. Yes, I understand the empty feelings and feeling like an outsider...it was the vulnerability my narcissistic mother beat into me that made me emotionally vulnerable and easy prey for the perpetrator. I am so thankful for the trauma therapist who is helping me recreate myself. It is never too late. I feel reborn in the true sense.
Thank you Nina for a wonderful blog. I've just recently identified that my Dad, Mom, and Step-mom are all full blown narcissists. The women in my family are the worst and it's obvious how it's gone down the line. It is so relieving to hear other's stories that I can identify with and I know that they understand what I'm saying. That's a breath of fresh air right there!
So often I feel out of place in every way imaginable. My serious struggle as of late is that I can't figure out what to do with my life. I start to drive myself insane when I think about it and I've realized that I feel worthless. I think that I am worthless and that the only worth I have is in the work that I do whatever that is, especially if I hate doing it. That's when I have the most value. A perfect reflection of growing up being the "slave" of the house, the family business and the farm. It was beyond what I could handle but I got through it breakdown by breakdown. A pattern that I continue to repeat and hope that I can break. I'm doing my best.
And to everyone else out there that is struggling, it's ok, everyone struggles with something at sometime. We just happen to deal with things at a different time than others. The importance is that we do struggle to deal and improve, a narcissist wouldn't do that and we can stop from the cycle continuing.
NOVEMBER 18 ANONYMOUS...
You wrote: A perfect reflection of growing up being the "slave" of the house, the family business and the farm.
OKAY...if it's not bad enough getting stuck w/narcissistic parents it's GOTTA be slaving for them on a FARM!
You mentioned getting thru it breakdown by breakdown. Just want to be sure...you mean you had several breakdowns?
While sad and concerning, in a way, it makes sense as a breakdown would be the only way to legitimately give yourself a break from them and the work...if there was no way that you could find to escape otherwise.
I believe our anger/frustration about our situations can make us both physically ill...and, of course, impact us our mental health, too...because our feelings are counter to how most people feel about their parents...making us feel even more defective than we do as a result of how we're treated by our parents.
This is something I remember and only now am seeing how the incident deeply influenced how I relate/struggle to relate to others. I was 13 and had written a letter to my best friend back home. I left the letter on the bookshelf by the door to be mailed. The next day I noticed an envelope with my father's handwriting addressed to my friend, stamped and ready to be sent. I thought it was strange and decided to open it. Not only had my father opened and read the letter but he had added his own sarcastic and mean remarks in the margins and empty spaces. This was very confusing for me. After all he was my dad, and he was really smart so the letter must have been stupid, right? I am 35 now and fiercely protective of my privacy, unsure of myself socially, and always worried about seeming stupid. I guess sometimes I feel empty because I'm afraid to let my guard down. I can handle feeling numb and empty, I've had plenty of practice. I have no idea what to do with kindness and love and the fear of being hurt is greater than the pain of emptiness.
March 22 Anonymous...
Please see my latest post for response.
I am 40 and the son of narcissistic father too. What you feel is what I felt too.
I have observed - over and over - that talking to those who have been abused by a narcissist have a level of understanding of the pain that is never reached by those who have not. I wish it was not the case, because it would be easier to reconnect, but that is not so. I have heard this many times over from other victims too. And it has nothing to do with self-pity.
This type of pain is something that cannot be communicated with words. It is so special. So profound. So unique. It is impossible to symbolize and communicate into language, because it lies in the very fabrication of the language narcissists use. It is like a big smart, discrete and selective black hole.
Did I feel empty inside? Yes. But this feeling disappeared over time when I put distance with my father. In fact, I am not in communication with him anymore and the energy came back. I have never ever felt better. Never.
Did I try to find the missing piece of the puzzle? Yes, absolutely. I found out we victims often do this: we try to make sense of something that does not make sense. EVER. It is an impossible task, because narcissists are globally incoherent.
The only thing that IS sensical and that can safely be accepted is the fact they are incoherent. It is inherent to their psychology.
Let me explain. They are unaware of their incoherence. They are not willing to address this issue, because it relates to their image which is an hyper-sensitive matter. It is their biggest source of inner and hidden anxiety.
They semi-consciously contradict themselves to preserve it. Facts are re-interpreted to fit with the new constructions and justifications they build on a permanent basis to preserve their image. There is no past, but the one they recreate over and over to reduce the stress of the present. And the world has to spin around it...
Hence, they are incapable of coherence and there is no point in trying to make sense of them, their actions or anything you 'think' might be wrong with yourself. You are not the source of the incoherence. You are being dragged in the whirlpool, but don't see the whirlpool.
Keep in mind their inner self is so weak that they psychically cannot address external coherence/fact life and people throw at them. It triggers so much stress that they would rather attack, destroy and manipulate than open to their vulnerability, pain and sadness.
Think about what a baby feels when he/she understand mammy is going to leave him/her in his bed alone or when he/she will not have access to the breast anymore. It is a high level of anxiety for babies.
Narcissist never get to deal with this type of anxiety in a mature way, like normal adults do. They hide it and manipulate the environment to keep sources of affections (i.e., mama) available and under control.
Narcissist live hidden under a thick crust. It is a kind of skeleton made of mental constructions crafted to preserve and control the attention given by mama (i.e., husband/spouse, society, etc... later in life).
This construction is external to their sense of self and they know it, but they cannot (and don't know how to) show their true self.
Even if you come to them with all the compassion and the understanding, they only see mama in you. They just don't open up. They are locked from inside.
No matter what you try, it is de facto feeding their semi-uncounscious game.
Some professionals have managed to nevrotise narcissistic perverts (NP's), which is the start of the cure. NP must accept entering therapy, which rarely happens, and when it happens, it is only either because everyone rejects them, they have committed a crime or lost a spouse taking care of them.
They dry up. The pain becomes so unbearable that the very mechanism of crafting stories is becoming too expensive for them to operate. It does not pay anymore. They cry and collapse. They enter depression. Then, they seek new ways to relate to life, and that's when learning to develop interpersonal (rather than narcissist or codependent) relationships become possible.
Not all professional understand and know about this. This not something victims can achieve by themselves in the relationship. We are too entangled into the problem and need to take care of ourselves first.
There is only one way out for us: cut, put distance and lick the wounds as long as much as necessary (often years...). We can only accept that we've been out of luck. Happiness is possible, but nowhere close to the narcissist, ever.
Think about planet earth and black holes. They are too far to reach out and hurt us, as powerful as they are.
How interesting ... your mother punished you for going to college. Me too.
When I came home from college for the first time, my father woke me up at night and took me down into the cellar and whipped me. He did it again the second night. He raped me and then whipped me the third night.
Yet, it's only now - twenty years later - that I'm realizing he's a narcissist. I knew he was crazy (an alcoholic too), so I always thought it didn't matter how he treated me. I just hated him my whole life. Yet, now, I feel so damaged. I've never pursued my own goals or needs - or I've half-assed pursued them. I barely know what I want.
My father tried to take everything from me. Sometimes I think he succeeded. Yeah, I went to college. It was an enormous effort to get there. But I didn't even finish.
I'm so very confused, my N father turns the tables on me, he gets sulky and snipy with me all the time and then will either say to his friends that he happy with whatever decision I've made he understands or viciously bad mouths me! most of the time everything I do is to spite him, according to him! getting married and having another child was to spite him he told all his friends, I kicked him out of my home he told his friends, when in fact he bought his own house and left because hubby and him cannot be in the same room together, hates poor husband, because husband does not kiss ass and will not ask for anything ever (huge faux par) (when i say friends I mean minions - never have i seen anyone treat their friends so badly, yet they stick around, mostly to kiss his ass, because its always a party at his house free food free booze and more often than not cash if you know how to beg and kiss ass, have no idea how father manages to walk with that many heads up his ass, i suspect that they think they will inherit something when he dies, and the funny thing is some of them will because they feed his hunger for the spotlight and tell him how awesome he is and agree with almost anything, not one of them has the balls to say any different to the all powerful Mr G, and those that did have left the country!) (the price you pay is the treatment you get, which is not always bad, if you kiss ass you are golden!!!!)I'm only perfect when he is drinking, then I'm wonderful! But I refuse to kiss ass and this is why I'm a bad spiteful daughter. I also work for this megalomaniac, lucky me!!!! what is going on??? The one thing I do do, and it is very manipulative, but its for my kids, I play up to his ego so he will spend his cash on my kids and not his friends so much! and in doing so, both of my kids have townhouses and tenents and will probably never have o work in their lives when he dies! Play their game better than them!
Great site Nina and a great sharing question. I am 50 and have been No Contact with N Father for the last 25 years. Mother finally divorced him 15 years ago and we reconciled shortly afterward. Things are not so great with N Sister and N Brother who work hard to be a chip off the old block and continue to engage him. Do I feel empty inside? Absolutely. Hoever I am blessed by God with a wonderful wife and two great kids (19 & 23).
No Contact has been my greatest weapon against him although his perseverence in trying to suck me back in has always been impressive. From writing nasty letters to my bosses, to calling everyone I know and telling them what a terrible human being I am. He is relentless. He has never met my children, but two weeks ago sent a Facebook message to my son, "Now that you are an adult and can think for yourself, I would like to meet you." My son thought that insulting me and him was an odd way for N Grandfather to introduce himself. I just shrugged and told him that if he ever wanted something absolutely bizarre in his life, here was his chance. He declined the invitation.
Perhaps the worst empty feeling that I experience is when I know that my wife and children will never understand the torment and pain of not having a loving parent. When I try to describe the evil that coarses through the veins of N Father, their stares go blank. When I tell them of the physical and mental abuse that me, my mother and siblings put up with, I judge that they think I am embellishing. When I try to explain my No Contact rule with him and my reluctance to attend any family function with the family on his side, I wonder if they think me the asshole. I know my family loves me, but they will never understand my pain (Thank God!). It is an empty feeling.
Thank you all for sharing your stories. This is very healing for us children of narc parents. For those that are No Contact, be strong and never give in because they will never give up...never, ever, ever.
So many comments, so many people suffering.
We are not alone in the end even if it's sad to see that so many people had to go through: enduring the narcissistic behaviour of their parents.
It is hard to accept that the people that are supposed to love you the most actually don't.
It is hard to be aware of what is love and completely change your perception of it. Hard not to end up in intimate relationships that are as armful - if not worst- as the relationship you had with your narcissistic family.
I still have so many questions and still trying to understand how all of this ended up the way it did.
My father grew up with his dad only and his dad refused to let him see his mother. My father missed her a lot and affected him deeply. I guessed that he was looking for a mother figure so when he met my mother, it was a blessing. Now, with more experience and finally a word and "definition" for what narcissistic behaviour is and is about, I can see more clearly and recognise the people behaving in such way faster and put the shield up when necessary.
I ended up thinking that my parents were the living master-slave dialectic to perfection. Recently I realised that my father did not aknowledge my feeling either. I started wondering if he was also a narcissistic person or if he would just follow my mother's behaviour? Since, the narcissistic perverts want their children to be like them, my father being in love would have got manipulated and followed my mother's steps. I don't understand how my mother could become like her father if she was also victim of her father's behaviour.
Isn't it logical to want to become a better person than the example you're given by your NP parents? Personnaly, I only had one idea in my mind from when I was a teenager: leaving the family house as fast as possible and finally be myself without feeling guilty of my every move, allowing myself to look forward to something, to the future without the fear of being stopped on the way to happiness. Bit by bit, I realised that the things I hated about myself were the things I hated about my mother. Did I become narcissistic? How do I know if I still am? How to change it? I do feel special sometimes because I percieve my friends' emotions easily, I can often tell what they are thinking about when I see their sad eyes and am aware of what is currently happening in their lives.
What is it that makes some people break off this infinite loop?
I do feel like that white screen, even if I studied English as a foreign language "because becoming a teacher is honorable" (my father was saying), I supposed he's right and I liked studying it but I can't say if it really is what I wanted for myself. In fact, I'd like to go back to studying but I still haven't got clue about what my career should be made of. 1/2
2/2
When I was a teenager, I thought of becoming a nurse. It seemed to be a good idea at the time but looking back it just looked like the perfect people pleasing job...
None of my parents' friends and family imagine what my parents have done to me. My parents made sure to say to everyone that I'm the bad and nasty one (the one that selfishly doesn't visit her poor and sick mother) and make sure they pass for the sweet people and the victims of my evil mind. I've been told should get over all of it because I had everything I needed (material): summer camps (the best 3 weeks of the years where I could train my lack of social skills), a bike, etc... It is kind of true for the material side but I didn't make up for the things that really mattered to me and were missing (psychological): being heard, having a normal discussion, having the right to express my feelings etc... I haven't mentioned everything that happened to me in my youth in regards to NP, it would be too long but it's very similar to what is described in the entries of this great blog.
Finally, I need to thank my little cousine, the sister I've never had because she's my confident and she confides in me too. We share a lot as her mother is my mother's little sister and very likely a NP from what I heard because my auntie is good to me even if sometimes she's picking (I picked back and she definitely stopped doing it to me a long time ago, maybe not to blow her cover...). I told my cousin to move away from home as soon as she could. Unfortunately, I sometimes see that her self-confidence has been broken too, she struggles a bit to find a job and move out...
Thanks to all of you for sharing your experiences, it helped me realise that it is possible to cut the bridge to desperation once and for all...
I didn’t feel empty inside, just invisible/irrelevant. I do feel like an outsider/weirdo/not normal, but without a clear sense of what normal is. I did feel incredibly incompetent, but as my father was campaigning for the lone competent person in the universe award, I’m not terribly surprised about that.
I was definitely discouraged from independence. My father mocked/criticized a lot and my mother basically thought everything was too hard, too risky for me to do. I’ve felt most of my life that I am designed to be the sidekick, the best friend and to do whatever others need me to do. My desires, dreams, goals come last.
I definitely got the message that I can’t need things and that any request no matter how small is a burdensome request. No matter what happened at school, good, bad or indifferent my answers were always the same – fine, nothing important happened.
It’s interesting you wandered onto feeling fake because others seemed more real but I suppose I associate fake with being an imposter or a liar, aka my father. I didn’t feel fake at all. I felt as if I didn’t actually exist. I had this nagging knowledge deep to my bones that I didn’t actually exist. At least that’s how I experienced it. Actually I often still feel that way, which may be part of my ADD/dreamy/forgetful way of thinking/feeling.
Definitely not loved/valued by him. The more I look at him, I think he sees the world in big broad stereotypes. So, there’s him and then the audience (the rest of the world) and there are different kinds of audience members, but they are all really just interchangeable. I’m a nerdy white male and so all other nerdy white males are completely interchangeable with me and will have little/no effect on his act. He does adjust his “act” to his audience. For example, my wife is black and so he adjusts his act to the black material (since all black people are completely interchangeable) and lectures her/educates her about the history of slavery. Now considering she’s actually black he could try and find out what is like to be black in America first hand, but that would put him in the student position which is intolerable to him. He must be the teacher.
He somehow combines this with liberal FDR Democrat politics which is somewhat contradictory, but he is an emotional idiot.
I generally retreated into creativity, but my father was a good artist and so he just competed with me and generally discouraged me from trying to be too good at anything.
The lesson was always to lie low, don’t draw any attention and maybe you’ll have an okay day.
Nik
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