There are some things that aren't discussed in polite company.
Things like loathing your own father or mother.
But it happens. You don't want to loathe them. You just do. And for damned good reason.
So when an Anonymous commenter stopped by and wrote the following, the feelings resonated, even if the experience did not:
All of you are lucky. My Dad expects a visit at least every other day and he is never grateful, kind or welcoming. He is ALWAYS miserable and complains incessantly. The ONLY thing he wants is to move into my home with my husband and children since my Mom passed away in February. He will not let it go and continually calls to tell me he is going to commit suicide since he can not be alone -- he MUST be with me in my home. Of course I have a full time job, my kids go to school and my husband works full time as well. He needs aides and he is the meanest man I have ever met. I have a feeling he will out live us all even though he is 90. My life has become a daily horror with him.
Later, she called him mean and petty and, I believe, a bully.
I'm betting he was always this way. Maybe just worse with age. Not all old people DEMAND to live with their adult children and families. Not all old people want to impose themselves in such a way. A friend's mother found her own assisted living facility and checked in without fuss. She didn't want to BURDEN her kids.
But what of the relationship between parent and adult child before? Even when there was a loving and warm relationship, caring for an elderly parent in one's own home is filled with challenges.
But if the relationship was marked with a lifetime of physical abuse, emotional abuse or neglect, WHY would a parent at the end of life feel entitled to such personal sacrifice and care? In the case of the narcissistic parent, it's because they are truly disordered. I firmly believe this.
Not that poor Anonymous is even considering taking her bully of a father into her own home, but I just want to mention another unmentionable: incontinence.
When you loathe your parent, having to change their adult diaper is the ultimate violation. I know because I had to do this for my mother, who developed Alzheimers. She didn't repulse me in the same way my father did and still does, but such a close and personal act left me shaking. I felt like I'd been assaulted. It was a degrading experience. It took me right back to the time when, for reasons unknown, my mother held me down and poured alcohol on my private parts.
People with dementia, and many old people, need 10-15 changes a day. I can't imagine - for a single second - how I could survive a single day changing the diapers of a man I loathe. And with men who have no boundaries, I also have no doubt there would be a sexual aspect to this. Several times, he told me his nurses changed his underwear so often because they "wanted him." (Permission to laugh)
Here's another taboo topic. Why do the mean people live so damned long? My amazing, wonderful, funny, sweet uncle was healthy and self-sufficient until the day he keeled over of a heart attack at 82. My kind, loving aunt lived on her own. She died suddenly of flu at 79. And then there's my narcissistic dad. Triple vessel coronary blockage, Lewy Body Dementia, incontinent, wheel chair bound...almost three years in an expensive assisted living facility...and still making life a misery for those around him. It just seems so unfair.
Anonymous, I know you didn't ask for advice, so feel free to ignore it!
I sense you are scared of your father, which is totally understandable.
But since you are so miserable already, you may want to consider the following. A former therapist once advised me to quit being such a doormat and tell my father if he treated me badly again, I wouldn't call him. This was such a novel idea that it was positively shocking. I couldn't imagine myself standing up to my father in this way. But I finally got up the nerve the next time he was verbally abusive. I let myself get angry and let him have it. To my surprise, my father backed down. I felt GREAT!
As for those awful phone calls from your father, may I suggest that you not subject yourself to them? Don't listen to them. Delete them or ask your husband to. The suicide threats are extortion. Of course.
I think you should seriously think about taking a break from him. Explain to the staff that you need some mental health time off and won't be calling or visiting. It sounds like you can't take much more. The head nurse at my dad's facility totally understands these sorts of situations and was very supportive. Your father sounds similar to a horrible old woman who tormented her daughter, who visited regularly. The daughter was an absolute mess. So I feel for you. I do!
Take care of yourself. He'll be miserable and mean whether you visit. Or not.
23 comments:
I told my mother, nearly two years ago, via letter that if she wasn't willing to work with the geriatric care manager my brothers and I had research and retained for her, I would not be in touch with her...in any way.
She wasn't.
And I haven't.
Every now and again (like now...mother's day approacheth, along with its symphony of expectations), my knee jerks and I think "Gosh, I should be in touch".
Then the jerking of the knee passes. I am so, so much stronger and better off. And finally, someone in her life has drawn the line. Honestly, it often seems like she went 70 years without that ever happening.
She'll either see the light and be reasonable, or I she won't. But in the latter case, I won't be nearby to watch the sickening result.
Thank you Nina. You are extremely articulate and you are very correct in your response. My mother died of a terrible cancer. I truly was honored to bathe her, change diapers, brush her hair, snuggle up to her and I delighted in kissing her even when she could not fully respond. That is because she loved me every day of my life. My father has never understood what it is to love. He used up every bit of my Mom's adoration.
Mom was flawed and I am not putting her on a pedestal. In fact - she very much created him by giving into him her whole married life. In the end -- she too "loathed" him after a lifetime of devotion because it finally occurred to her that he did not truly love her back. He was cruel to her as she was no longer able to "serve." Of course he has no recollection of this and only misses his angel now. I know I sound so cold and mean myself. I am embarrassed by this, but I have felt so hopeless in my dealings with him. And --- of course - when I feel ready to cut a cord -- he pulls me back in with false loving words. I know they are hollow, yet the pathetic part of me responds so quickly. And -- I am due back at his side -- for dinner tomorrow.
I will print out your comments and try to let it sink in. Again -- thank you for your wisdom and your willingness to respond to a stranger with a very large problem.
my heart cringes for you, anonymous, i know how that "due at his side for dinner" feels... i bet everyone who visits here, feels it all to well... the dread, the sickening in the pit of your stomache, my shoulders would tense to the point of snapping and my sciatica would trigger... it was a whole body "revolt" trying to prepare itself, like a warrior going into battle, gearing up for the inevitable episode... other people visit w/their family... we have to endure
the only thing i can tell you as you put on the armor... when you snap back and tell him "no more, you're not pulling this sh!t on me anymore" and then you pull out the indifference (i swear it makes you like rubber to their glue)... "yeah okay... so you're gonna kill yourself, well make sure you dont make a mess... or do it halfway, cause that would really $uck".... you really DO have power... it's all in how you manipulate back (as much as you dont want to) but they're not as smart, as strong or as scary as you think they are... they're only as smart, as strong or as scary as you LET THEM BE....
wow... it's not even 8 and i'm all fired up for you! good luck tonight!
ELISE:
So apt and beautifully put: SYMPHONY OF EXPECTATIONS!
It's funny. When it comes to narcissism, the expectations seem to run in one direction only. Into our laps! But my dear, you stood up - HAH! Suddenly, there is no lap in which to dump expectations. Still, I know making that decision must have been agonizing. And you DID act morally and responsibly by finding a geriatric care manager...which SHE chose to reject!
ANONYMOUS; You are most welcome. There is something about you that really struck a cord with me. When my father started showing signs of needing help, I repeatedly asked him to relocate near me so he could continue living independently...with my help shopping, cooking, taking him to the doctor. I couldn't keep flying 400 miles to bail him out. This he refused. Eventually, his doctor and I forced him into an assisted living facility. Several days after checking in, he called me and said he'd changed his mind. He wanted to live with me instead. We have a 3 bedroom house. I have two teenage daughters and no extra space. My husband and I toyed with the idea of using some of the money from the sale of his modest house to build an addition that would accomodate him...and give us some privacy. Which would have meant less money for any aides, etc...meaning I would be the one to do the work. I projected out into the future and imagined my marriage failing and my girls too embarrassed to bring anyone home b/c my father is so strange and prejudiced, to boot. He's pulled the suicide threat a couple times. Once in the car driving somewhere. I swear, I was sorely tempted to push him out of my moving vehicle. I remembered that moment and thought, I can never have this man in my home because I know I'd end up doing him harm.
That's why when my Dad's doctor said, People like him are at greater risk for abuse. He needs to go into a facility where there are lots of workers who can take turns caring for him. One aide can't cope with somebody like him.
So I feel like you are living the life I might have had if I'd moved my father closer to me. Basically, that of a slave.
If you haven't, I strongly recommend that you read books on narcissistic parents, like the one by Alice Miller and Nina Brown. They may be of some help and comfort.
HEY ROXTARCHIC, Great insight! I'm gonna post it tomorrow so more people will see it. Hope that's okay.
Wow Nina, again as always you are so articulate (btw, please don't apologize for not responding to our comments in a timely manner, you have a family and you help me so much putting into words I have yet to find). And OMG, the part about your own mom holding you down and pouring alcohol on you?! What the hell! It's stories like this I'm glad my own parents are so touch-phobic, except when my dad bites me, that I could never figure out.
When you loathe your parent, having to change their adult diaper is the ultimate violation.
When the parent is repulsive the thought of caring for them in such intimate manner would be a violation on the children. Eeesh, it makes sense now. One time in China a group of agressive vendors were overwhelming my tiny mom so I used one arm to wrap around mom while using my body and other arm to push the vendors away. I remember feeling revolted that I body shield my mom and couldn't figure out why. Since learning about narcissism I understand so much better about my own reactions to things involving my parents.
Why do the mean people live so damned long?
My Christian friends like to say that God is giving these people the time and the chance to repent and change themselves. In their less generous moments they say God doesn't want these people in heaven, and neither does the devil in hell. I say that the mean people live longer because they've dumped all their negative feelings onto someone else so their own body doesn't have to deal piles of stress.
Enilina,
The mysterious alchohol incident is why I believe in repressed memories resurfacing. I thought I'd simply forgot it with time, but I think it was much more than that. I have no idea why my mom would have done such a thing. None. It was either punishment or some Mexican folk remedy.
As for our physical reactions...you know that saying? The body never lies? We can't fake how we react to physical proximity with our narcissistic parents...at least not to ourselves. Of course, my mother called me "cold" and "selfish" because I withheld myself from her cuddles. (Maybe because I was afraid of a lurking alcohol bottle?)
I LOVED - absolutely LOVED - hearing the various theories on why mean people live so long. All of them were totally new to me...and I can't wait to share them with my husband, who was wondering the same thing. Thank you!
Nina,
you said:
"Of course, my mother called me "cold" and "selfish" because I withheld myself from her cuddles."
Total deja vu for me, I was always told I was cold, however I am not cold with my son & husband, only with her because, the relationship was not based on love, it was based on presentation for the outside audience. It's based on what she feels she must convey to fit in with society, which is (I think) the ONLY reason she had children, she claims to have never loved my father, so why procreate with him?? Because society dictated so.
One thing I still have trouble figuring out:
for a woman obsessed with her social profile, why did she not teach me ANY social skills?? cooking skills? her own sister visiting from Europe who spoke no English taught me to crochet. I had to figure out simple social etiquette on my own and made MANY embarassing mistakes. So if I am a reflection of her, an extension of her then why did she let me flounder????
Elizabeth
nina, by all means, i'm flattered!
and for my two cents, i think mean people (esp narcs) live so long because they let it all out, w/out any filters while the more human of our species tend to bottle it up... hold it in... or back at the very least (& then there's the whole spite factor that oughta carry em a few years at least)
and lilgirllost, i would think... any floundering would only make her feel superior... then again the only reflection they see is themselves... if you look bad, they look good, if you look good, they look good too...
The question of why mean people live so long reminds me of the old saying “the good die young,” and like most old sayings, has a basis in fact. Take for example the military: top performers are usually the ones who get put in the most dangerous/critical jobs because they are the top performers, so they die faster than their less impressive contemporaries. So the natural selection process is that the best people rise rapidly or die, leaving less experienced and less capable people at the lower ranks. I believe the real world is also a reflection of this.
I agree with roxtarchic about why narc parents let their children flounder. Teaching us social skills require the Narcissist to actually pay attention to someone else. My mom always said that my autistic sister required so much attention and hence why she didn't have the time to teach me things, and yet she can spend up to 3 hours every other night lecturing me on how stupid I am. And if the child turn out to be a loser, it’s something else the narc parent can use against the child and put all the blame on, through no fault of the parent of course.
My father told me (before he moved himself out of the assisted living facility my sister and I chose for him) that he could live in my basement. I cannot hardly make it up and down those steps - and this is a man who uses a walker. I think it was his dig at me that since I was so mean and hadn't yet allowed him to move into my general household, maybe I would be so kind as to allow him to live in an unliveable space. The A$$. Now he's 78 years old and living 30 miles from me and has conveniently forgotten it was his choice to move. Now he says he moved because there would be "no money left for us girls" when he dies because the facility charges would eat it all up. I've quit telling him I don't care about his freakin' money because he doesn't listen - but I'm sure he tells this story to other people who haven't yet come to know him - I can only imagine what these people think of his cold, money-grubbing daughters who are waiting for him to kick the bucket. He made a mistake in moving out, but he'll never admit it, and I will not help him again because he bled me dry before. And I cringe because he's exactly the guy who'll live to 90 damn years old and be meaner than sin and try to hit other old people with his cane.
I feel so sorry for those of you who struggle caring for an elderly n parent. Like having to grow up in their home wasn't horrible enough! I can't imagine how you make it through the day-to-day stress of caring for someone who doesn't appreciate anything you do and only complains and expects more.
It's times like this that I'm thankful that my n father died so young (61). Speaking of which...
"There are some things that aren't discussed in polite company.
Things like loathing your own father or mother.
But it happens. You don't want to loathe them. You just do. And for damned good reason. "
Talk about something resonating!
I tried to find support groups after my n father died. Having a parent dying and feeling relieved was....odd. I couldn't find anyone who understood -- a child who isn't in the slightest bit sad when their parent dies tends to sound like a monster.
Cinder Ella: My sister and I were finally able to have the "when will it be over" conversation - the relief was tremendous - that is to know I wasn't the only child in our family to feel this way. I do feel guilty about it, because I know in an ideal situation, no one would ever think such things. But our situations are so far from ideal, so far from normal even...Years and years of drama, craziness - it's not wrong to want that to be over.
we know who the monster is... really. but i know what you mean about other peoples perceptions... i find myself wondering what my 'family' (fathers side, cousins especially) think of us... when we arent the ones to pick him up & take him to a family function... (one of them inevitably does is) and i can't even imagine what he must tell them (well the ones he speaks to anyway) but we have his alcoholism as a crutch in that regard... they know there's more to it i'm sure... but noone who doesnt understand can grasp the scope of it... let go of the guilt, we know who the monster is!
Just another glorious day with dear old Dad. Happy Mothers Day to me! As I mentioned in previous posts – my Mom passed away three months ago. I have three great kids and yes – today was Mothers day. But it did not matter to Dad. His expectation was the inevitable Sunday visit. So off I went because my brother threatened to melt down if his wife had to give up her Mother’s day. My father not once acknowledged that it was Mother’s Day even though all around him were the signs and signals of the day. All he did was complain endlessly about his aide who has a cold. He was agitated and angry that his aide (who is the most patient and wonderful man) was spitting and sneezing all over him. He literally was depicting a Typhoid Mary. I never saw the aide even wipe his nose. So after I leave – he dismisses the aide. The aide says he can not leave unless he gets permission from my brother. (Brother is the one paying for the 24/7 aides.) My Dad goes ballistic. He calls brother who says aide is correct and lets the poor guy leave. Now N Dad is alone and raging. He calls me to vent for 30 minutes about miserable aide, miserable brother, and his miserable life which he calls a non-life. Happy Mothers Day.
When oh when oh when will this be over? I now go to therapy (which is costing an arm and a leg) and my medical doctor wanted to put me on antidepressants which I refused. I am beginning to complain incessantly like my Dad. I feel it – so I will end this rant.
My sorrow goes out to you Nina and to every one of your readers. I just feel so sad.
It seems to me that as we age, we either get better, or we get worse. People who have some self-awareness and self-discipline become more balanced. People who lack those qualities become more exaggerated -- almost a cariacature of their younger selves. At some point, it is safe to say that they are no longer capable of getting better - but that has been their lifelong choice.
My sister, who is a psychiatrist, tells me that even people with far worse mental illnesses can recognize boundaries and limits, so I think it is very fair to set them for yourselves.
ELIZABETH:
"Why didn't she teach me any social skills?"
I suspect it's because teaching requires patience, time and energy. She would have actually had to focus on YOU. My mother used to complain that I was weak and compliant and didn't stick up for myself, yet she never gave me any tools to actually do this. She never role played or passed on any pearls of wisdom. She was only capable of criticism...not constructive advice. I also suspect that many of us children of narcissists were left to fend for ourselves in the skill building department!
Hi Nina & everybody,
Yes, Yes, I too was called weak, my mom even called me a pu$$y for not sticking up for myself!!!!!!!!
yet she broke me down every time I tried to stick up for myself within the family, but I knew better than to stand up to her!
Yesterday was mother's day & Saturday was my dad's bday, I haven't spoken to these people in years, but they have left their mark on me.
Elizabeth
BILLIE:
"I can only imagine what these people think of his cold, money-grubbing daughters who are waiting for him to kick the bucket. He made a mistake in moving out, but he'll never admit it, and I will not help him again because he bled me dry before."
I try and not imagine what people think of me, too, Billie. Makes me CRINGE! Others will only see a lonely old man who nobody ever visits...a man who complains about how his family has abandoned him in his time of need and after all he's done for them! It's hard not to care because it's truly awful to be cast as such a heartless villain: the worst of the worst....INGRATES! All we can do is grit our teeth and bear this additional indignity!
CINDER ELLA: Thank you for sharing how you felt after your Dad died. So many people talk about their sincere grief at the death of a beloved parent. No one ever talks about feeling relieved. Yet, the narcissistic parent DOES take up a huge (negative) space in our lives...so when they are finally gone...what happens to that space? If it's not grief that we feel - besides relief - what else is it? It's a strange void. In a way, we were tethered to them, either in dealing with them or trying NOT to deal with them. That's some pretty complicated stuff. And nooooo support groups to help, I imagine.
OMG, ANONYMOUS!
What an absolutely sucky Mother's Day! Well, of course you need to be able to vent and complain about your father because he's awful and dumping everything on you. I hope he doesn't last long and releases you from this nightmare.
I'm still rooting for you to take a mental health break. I know your brother is having a hard time, too, but a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do.
Have you and your brother talked to your dad's doctor about his agitation/hostility? It sounds like your father is the one who should go on meds...not you. Just fyi...the doc who evaluated my father said my dad should have been on anti-anxiety meds DECADES before b/c he was barely functioning and driving everyone crazy. Even on meds, he's still high maintenance, but he has calmed down some. Maybe request a psych evaluation?
HI CELERA!!!
Nina,
I stumbled upon your blog after reading a book that described my narcissistic family to a tee. I loathe my father and his self-serving speeches. His self-envolvement has served him so well and my mother has eaten it up. He has left my family in the lurch many times since I was a child. We would have starved if it wasn't for my maternal grandmother. In all my childhood, my mother just became a co-dependent, relying on him for drugs, so she could forget about his verbal abuse and neglect.
It used to cause a great deal of grief for me to loathe him, mainly because my mom would give me guilt for it. But now I understand a lot more about my physical responses to the stress of me trying to communicate with him and never getting through. His mother was a narcissist and she taught him to be one. I'm just living, have kicked the drugs to the curb and really want to never speak to either of them again, but I have to. It puts me in such a bad mood to talk to either of them. It is all fake conversation where my dad is trying to make himself look good even though he has been leeching off of my mother, grandmother, me and my brother for almost 40 years. Or it is a superficial conversation with my mom about the weather, or what was on Southpark last night. Keep up the good work here with your blog. It's good to see how other people are dealing with similar issues.
ANONYMOUS,
HANG IN THERE!
From what I've heard, your father's reaction to the psychiatrists is pretty typical. If a narcissist realizes they aren't able to manipulate, they quickly turn on that person...professionals included.
CLECK THE WARRIROR: Isn't it amazing when we can see our families mirrored in a book? I'm glad you're taking steps to protect yourself. The dynamics you described sound awful...with the drugs an added complication.
You talked about the superficial conversation I'm really glad you did. I don't think I've ever had a real or interesting chat with either of my parents. They were extremely superficial...not being readers or thinkers...so it was all what they'd eaten or watched on TV or something that had happened to them. Even as a child, I found them incredibly boring. Later, I found them terribly sad. Especially after I met other adults who lived rich lives and had interesting things to say.
When you
Both my brother and I were serverely abused by our parents. My father was just plain abusive. My mother has been an abuser and a user. For example, someone has to take care of me (73 now, but has had this attitude since her forties. Just looking for money or us to let her live in our homes. Never did anything for us, unless you count the beatings and emotional torment for forty odd years. I usually don't post messages but I feel compelled today. I have been "no contact" with my mother for at least 10 years now. Of course you suffer no matter what you do. Either you live with the torment of dealing with them or you live with the torment of people who don't understand, judge you as cruel for abandoning your parent.
The reason I feel compelled to post today is that my 45 year old brother just passed away from drinking his life away because it was the only way he could live with the PTSD he suffered from growing up in that hell hole.
On his death bed, he couldn't even bare to have her there. She has contacted us on and off throughout the years (but never admitting anything she's done). It's always so funny - right after the contact, there's usually a request for money. Interesting, wonder what her motives are?? Well anyway, he would keep somewhat of a distant contact, but that even proved too much. As those of you with narcissistic parents know, there is no way to keep any contact without the constant emotional blackmail, digs, etc. They will lie to whoever is around them in order to isolate you. I never abused them, etc. etc. and you are screwed because our culture tends to believe parents (especially elderly parents).
The reason for my ramblings is to tell those of you who have gone "no contact" to stay "no contact". People may not understand, but if you have already gone "no contact", it means you have reached your mental tolerance. It takes alot of pain and suffering before an adult child will cut contact with a parent. Screw those who judge you (especially since they always seem to be the people who have had decent parents and don't know the realities of abuse). I still think of suicide as a better alternative at the though of having to see my abusive mother.
If you haven't gone "no contact" - be careful. Sometimes you think you are strong enough to still see them, but it doesn't mean you are. Don't let society pressures make you sacrifice your life. My brother drank to cope, he didn't want to die, but sometimes you try so hard to connect with these people that you destroy your body whether through drinking, drugs, or just a plain heart attack from the stress.
Don't sacrifice your health and life for people who won't care even if you do.
God Bless all of you!!
I'm just starting to allow myself to accept the fact that I don't love my narcissist mother, after 26 years of abuse. I always thought it was sin, or reinforcing her story that I'm an ungrateful bitch of a child, to not love my mother. But loving her is impossible - love is reciprocal, and she doesn't know the meaning of the word. And I hate her for how she's worked to destroy me. If I can get to healthy indifference, I think I can get to a point where, even if I have to financially support her someday, every inch of contact that I ever have with her will be from a distance.
But have you ever written a post on sibling rivalries, by any chance? I'm curious to know what you think. In my family of 4 children, I'm very much at the bottom of the totem pole even though I'm the oldest. I'm scared that my youngest brother and sister, who are 8 and 15, that I've worked so hard to try and uplift so that they would grow up knowing my mother's way is a false reality in the outside world, are turning against me because of her training. I'd really like to read something to help with that.
E.N.
Sticks and Stones - An Emotional Abuse Survivor's Blog
http://theemancipatedsurvivor.blogspot.com
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