Anonymous Bob asked:
"Nina, don't you think that your relationship with your n-parents could be described as an abusive relationship? That's what I think about my parents. Look at this: My childhood sucked. No love, just ice cold mind games and manipulation. When I see her today I get this trigger thing going on so I can't really meet her without going crazy. So I avoid her.Here's my hypothesis: being a child of narcissistic parent(s) *is* actually abusive and as children of narcissistic parent(s) we share the main symptoms of physically abused persons like triggers, avoidance, etc. We were emotionally and spiritually abused!"
Yeah. Pretty much. But it's funny. And hard to think about, clearly, because both my adoptive, narcissistic parents thought they spoiled me rotten. Probably because they both grew up woefully poor. So the fact that they fed me, didn't slap me around (well, my mother did a few times), rarely drank, gave me birthday parties and paid $89 a month back in the seventies to send me to Catholic High School qualified them for sainthood.
On the flip side, the stories they told about me are...telling.
Every single story they ever related portrayed me as an insufferable inconvenience.
When I was one, I refused to stay in my crib and climbed out to be with them. My Dad likes to recall what a pain in the ass I was and how they could never watch a T.V. show without me butting in.
How I'd whine and complain about staying with my grandmother (every single weekend) because they went clubbing and wanted to sleep in late. Apparently, I couldn't understand why they needed a break from those strenuous five days of caring for an only child.
How I invited kids over and got the house messy or trampled through the ivy in the backyard. How I was always nagging them to go over to a friend's house.
How I abandoned my mother to hang out with friends and later, go to college.
So basically, after a lifetime hearing how good you've had it and what an ungrateful bastard you are, one must disregard their version of events and learn to respect one's own memory.
But like Anonymous Bob, I too have the same response: avoidance. After I'd finally left home, I couldn't stand to be around them.
When I visit my elderly father, I stay as far away from him as the room will allow and try to avoid touching him. If I do, I have to force myself not to cringe.
When he was younger and came to visit, he'd follow me around the house, talking, talking, talking. His endless chatter felt like an assault. I wanted to scream, "Get away from me, leave me alone for God's sake."
Okay. I know many parents get on their kid's nerves. But this is different. It's just not normal to react to one's parent like they were a zombie in Night of the Living Dead. Unless you were in an abusive relationship. Then it makes more sense. It's just not the kind of abuse that most of us have heard about it. There's much less general information, it seems, about emotional abuse.
And for the record, I think my both my parents were very ignorant and emotionally crude people, driven by their unconscious need for unconditional love and attention.
But I'd love to hear from you. I'm sure Anonymous Bob would be interested, too. As the child of a narcissist, do you think you were emotionally abused?
21 comments:
I just read "Children of the Self Absorbed" the second edition and thought is was great. Athough, I still went searching for more answers. I Googled around and found your blog. I completely feel your pain. I am a 32yr old who was raised by an overbearing N father. I knew I was being emotionally abused years ago but just recently realized that it's actually because of my fathers' disorder "Narcissism"! It fits so perfectly. Anyway, I just wanted you to know I really appreciate your openness and thank you for sharing your view.
Marlene
Here is a helpful link for anyone wondering if they are in an abusive relationship:
http://www.drphil.com/articles/article/21
OMG... the endless chatter!!!!! following you around w/the endless chatter... i can relate to that so well it felt like a smack. no my father never once raised a hand to me... but yeah no doubt in my mind i was abused, we all were, the verbal assaults we were subjected to... would make grown marines cry... i recall coming home when i was a teen (an hour earlier than evreyone else was expected home, it was always a big deal to get me home on time as my father was so 'strict') that if i was a MINUTE past curfew... which was 10:00 i think.... i was up till 3:00 am being yelled at and just verbally shredded (he'd be drunk by the time i'd get in)... hours of it!!! it does make me wonder how i survived... (but i did)
i've had to talk to him today... it just amazes me how the conversation can only be about him, his ailments, his this, his that... i just listen, uh huh, uh huh, uh huh, uh huh okay, uh huh, uh huh... yeah.. ok.. uh huh
siiighhhh
it's just exhausting... and i mean bone deep to the marrow emotionally exhausting... an infant, who needs you 24/7 to LIVE, w/a double ear infection who's teething.... is less draining than a narcissistic parent
SIIIIGHHHH
"As the child of a narcissist, do you think you were emotionally abused?"
Absolutely! By both parents. I have felt the 'get away from me' part many times. Again, with both parents.
They always provided for me financially. But the stories my Nmom tells about how difficult it was being a mom. My dad doesn't tell stories. He just doesn't recognize my choices - makes decisions for me and can't understand why I am upset.
So yeah, I have known they were emotionally abusive for a long time. It has only been recently that I have been able to look it in the face and start breaking off contact - because they are still abusive.
As the child of a narcissist, do you think you were emotionally abused?
I'm still on the fence. Where I get caught up is the definition of abuse.
In general, I'm inclined to say no. BUT, having spoken with adults who were physically and/or sexually abused, I share much of the same unusual quirks/problems/difficulties/hang-ups/thinking processes/emotional challenges/whatever you want to call it. :) That alone makes me seriously wonder if it could fall into the category of "abuse".
Ella
Ella~
I understand. I didn't think my Nmom abused me, either. But there is such a thing as emotional abuse. It is every bit as traumatizing as any other abuse. There is a great article on this at this site:
http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html
Katherine
katherine, what a great article, thank you so much for sharing it!
Well, let's see. As the child of a Narcissist, you are treated as though you are an extension of them. What identity you may have had as a child gets crushed under the labels they give you and the projections of the shame they hide inside of themselves. Maybe you never got basic medical care. Maybe you were left alone to fend for yourself for hours. Maybe you were called bitch, slut, lazy, selfish, liar.
The entire phenomenon that is Narcissism means that a person has little interest in anyone other than themselves, unless they perceive someone as a means to an end. This includes using their children as verbal punching bag or as a way to validate themselves for that which they are not entitled.
How this could NOT be perceived as child abuse is completely lost on me.
Katherine, thank you so much for the article.
I definitely knew I was being emotionally abused as a kid, but that didn’t stop me from wanting to take care of these overgrown crybabies. Dad failed at playing the victim card but mom was better at it and convinced me that her using me as an “emotional punching bag” (borrowing from Pearl) was just her way of reacting to stress, especially since I was adding to her stress by not being a straight A-student. Once I got to the same age as my parents when they became parents, I realized there was no excuse for them acting like vindictive subhumans that enjoyed their vile belittlements alittle bit too much.
The final straw that told me mom enjoyed her devaluing antics was last year when she yelled that we "need to talk" and if I go to church instead of staying for the talk, then she would cut me off right there and then. A light bulb flicked on inside, I knew I was about to discover something important so I agreed to stay for "the talk." Mom looked so relieved and happy as she settled down at the table for the old fashioned 3 hours of belittlement (she hadn't been able to do for for 15 years), that is until she saw my notebook and ready pen and realized I going to write down everything she says. "Don't write anything down! Don't hold me responsible for what I say!" Of course I ignored her and the lecture became only one hour. That afternoon I researched and found the term "malignant narcissism" and for the first time alot of things made sense.
Oh gawd the “follow me around the house, talking, talking, talking. His endless chatter felt like an assault”! Last year my mom was following me,chattering, and she followed me right into my room. My room, the only room in my house that she is not supposed to follow me into. So I walked out of my room and as soon as she followed me into the hallway I immediately turned around back into my room and shut the door. She just stood outside the door chattering away. It never ceased to amaze me that Ns are never bothered by the lack of, or indifferent ,or even negative signals and just keeps right on talking.
Roxtarchic~
You're welcome. Information is power - strength. And learning what happened is a process - a series of epiphanies. Some hurt like hell. Some bring great relief. But it is progress toward freedom. Knowing the truth is the only way to freedom.
Hey everybody,
Read all your comments. Running short on time today and want to read the article Katherine linked to so I can join in...Thanks, Katherine!
Hey everybody,
Read all your comments. Running short on time today and want to read the articles Marlene and Katherine linked to so I can join in...Thanks!
I've read around Andrew Vachss site. I find his view interesting, but not all that compelling.
Where I get caught is the definition of abuse. With emotional abuse, it just seems so subjective that I'm uncomfortable saying I was abused. Is there such a thing as a bad parent who isn't abusive? What's the threshold for abuse? For me, it's just too nebulous. Therein lies the rub.
Should the determination be made based on the effect on the child? Should it be a DSM-style definition, where if x of y traits are present, it's abuse? Should it be based somehow on the quality of the relationship between child and parent?
I dunno. I find myself NC with my mother. I have no idea if she's dead or alive. I have absolutely no desire to ever see or hear about her again. When my father died it was a relief. I have NC with any of my extended family, nor do I have any desire it. Based on my limited experience, this is unusual. I struggle with attachment (ya think?) and I'm just now learning (at age 43) what *I* like as opposed to what I was trained to like. Yet, I still can't confidently say there was any abuse present. I think it's possible that I bad, yet not abusive, parents.
Ella
Do I think I was abused? No, for I KNOW I was emotionally abused - in too many ways to count. Two examples: For my mother money is her "true love" and she always made certain I knew it. For example, when I was in college she told me she "couldn't afford" to fly me home for Christmas or Thanksgiving. Yet, when I did manage a visit home there was always a new, top-of-the line Mercedes in the garage, or two. Further, she never came to visit me where ever I lived - even when she would be in the same city! I would find out about it later from my sister that she'd been in town and never bothered to call or visit which is clearly a not so subtle attempt to let me know I was not worthy of her attention. She once became interested in my life only when she learned I was dating a scion from a wealthy family and naturally, she didn't want to be left off being invited on his family's yacht! Ugh. There were other more gruesome emotional mind games, I won't bore you with but my mother clearly relishes any emotional distress she can proffer to the point it can only qualify as "emotional sadism." I consider emotional abuse as the "hallmark" of NPD.
"And hard to think about [being emotionally abused], clearly, because both my adoptive, narcissistic parents thought they spoiled me rotten."
Mine too! And my friends too! And therapists too! Why am I almost the only one who sees the insanity and narcissism of my mother?
I think it's because labeling a parent a narcissist is just the tip of the iceberg. The difference between my mother and myself goes much deeper than that, and I think it has much to do with my father leaving before I was born. A cultural thing. A genetic thing. What I'm really saying when I call my mother a narcissist is that we are fundamentally culturally different and that she was unable to give me what I needed emotionally and intellectually. In a word: she's vulgar. :P Me calling her a narcissist is my rebellion. It's me trying to find what I never got.
"trying to find what i never got" wow... that's bang ON, isn't that just the whole of it!?! i think for me... giving is how i find what i never got, there's a satisfaction in giving to MY family (meaning my dh & lil man) and MY friends (the people that aren't toxic, no frenemy's in this i mean the true friends) because there is such a perfect satisfaction in giving... w/out anything attached, that's so foreign to what i've known in my relationship w/my father, that it's almost a novelty...
Anna V. has a post up by the late-Kathy K.on the FACT emotional abuse is as bad as physical.
Well worth the read.
HWS
http://holywatersalt.blogspot.com
Yes, I was abused. Even though my father was the more violent one, and my narcissistic mother only left marks a few times, and they only hit me in front of other people a few times, and also considered us spoiled, I was abused. The spoiled thing really gets to me too, since she has since told me that my children are spoiled. I can't see it. I tried to look at them from an outsider's point of view, and I saw polite, inquisitive children that seemed generally happy. Was that what set her off, the fact that they were happy in a genuine way she never could be?
I have been working on healing old emotional wounds they inflicted, still, at age 36. Some are so scarred that I don't even know what might lie underneath, and am pushing through the pain of finding out. I can identify in so many ways how I was programmed to be who they wanted me to be, and not who I might have been if allowed to blossom "normally."
A good side to this journey is that some of my research has opened up lines of communication with my teenaged daughter. I am so terrified of doing to her what was done to me that I'm hyper aware of how she is treated. In a conversation with her last night, she talked with me about how her father seemed to like to talk just to hear himself (and I bit my tongue since it was about her opening up to me, and not about me bad-mouthing him to her), which matches what many have you said about the incessant chatter.
And another interesting coincidence, I actually referenced a quote by Andrew Vachss right before your post. Seems he might be particulary relevant to my path right now.
Wow. And... Wow. I have an alcoholic parent (not necessarily narcissistic) but so many of the things you said rang true. The emotional abuse while being told your were lucky and spoiled, telling everyone who will listen what a pain in the neck you were/are.
My mother still asks me why on earth I would want another child (I already have two), "Why would you do that to yourself?" I guess she must have found me to be a real joy huh?
I didn't fit either. I was more like my absent Dad and my mother made damn sure any manifestation of any of his characteristics were squelched. She still does not acknowledge my success in those areas she thinks of as his domain.
For thirty years I thought my mother's misery was my fault. I don't think I can ever forgive her for that :-(
Anyway, my sympathy, I hope you get better at protecting yourself from your Dad, I'm still working on it with my mother. Often I'll hang up the phone and realise she's done it again - convinced me she's the victim. I still fall for it, it's extraordinary.
Great blog, very brave, and a big comfort to me today.
Cheers
Emma
... and another thing...
After reading a bit more about N parents I realise that my alcoholic mother pretty much fits the bill - I'd hazard a guess that most alcoholic parents would. Maybe it's an intrinsic personality trait, or maybe it's because alcohol is their one true love and there's just not enough left for anyone else.
Regarding emotional abuse vs physical abuse? The thing about physical abuse is that you have the outside world (other people, media, school etc) telling you it's wrong. When your parents hit you (the well timed smack does not count IMHO) you have the outside world to counter the message from your parents that you deserved it.
You don't have that outside world comparison with emotional abuse. Or I didn't. Mum had me convinced that the world was out to get her, that my aunts and uncles were evil, hated us, and were not to be trusted. That authority figures had it against us... (who's a kid to turn to once the adult world has been made the enemy?) Now if she'd started saying that stuff in my teens I might have thought she'd gone mad. But she said it when I was little, when I was still at a stage where I thought everything she said was true. Young kids rely on you to tell them how to keep safe, they think the things you say are TRUE.
What I'm trying to communicate, I guess, is that with emotional abuse, the whole scenario is NORMALISED. I thought all adults got drunk in the evening, I thought dismissal and belittlement was a normal way to treat people. I thought it was true that I was lazy, inconsiderate and ungrateful. Quiet households with no shouting frightened me in a way I couldn't put my finger on at the time; I now know that it was because the abusive environment was normalised for me.
Emotionally abused children do not wear the scars of physically abused children, they do not stand out because they've taken to behaving in ways that won't get them noticed - if you're not noticed, you can't be told what you've done wrong today. This shrinking from contact is mistaken for shy and retiring. Emotional abuse as a child often does not emerge until much later when the adult can't function for some reason and goes to get help.
So yes, yes, yes, you can be emotionally abused.
Yes, without a doubt. I definitely think I have behavioral and emotional abnormalities that are a direct result of narcissistic parents. As I was reading through your blog entries, I do recall a number of painful memories. But I have to admit, I started laughing when I was reading through and remembering some of the stories at how completely absurd the parent's behavior was/is and how truly ridiculous their reactions are to the actions of their children behaving like normal children.
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