I have no recollection of being sexually abused by my narcissistic father.
In fact, I can't even remember any physical inappropriateness, like Enilina can. Her father used to bite her. (Please see her comment to the previous post)
Yet, the idea of any physical contact with my father is simply repulsive. If he kisses me on my cheek, it's all I can do not to run to the bathroom and wash my face. I sit as far away from him as I can. There is a picture of me, about five, and n-dad in our backyard. I'm in a bathing suit and we're standing on some steps. He's grinning at the camera. I'm unsmiling and my entire body is angled away from him. It looks like I'm poised to vault over the banister to escape, but I can't because he's got one hand on my arm. (Next post: Stockholm Syndrome...thanks to Roxtarchic for bringing it up!)
In an earlier post, I mentioned that my cold, self-absorbed mother did douse my private parts with alcohol when I was tenish. No idea why.
As my parents aged and it became clear that somebody had to tend to their failing bodies, I knew one thing. It wasn't going to me. Sure, I'd take them to doctor's visits, manage their medical care, daily care and finances, but I wasn't going to be the one giving sponge baths and changing adult diapers. It would have been like submitting to a daily, physical assault.
But I've often wondered WHY I'm so repulsed by my parents, especially my father. Maybe it has something to do with what Cinder Ella wrote:
"The whole thing about sexual weirdness...I've felt some of that, too. I've pretty much written abuse off as nonsense in my case, but there were other weird things. I suppose it shouldn't be surprising considering that to the narcissist everything is about them, why shouldn't that include sexuality?"
This is as good a theory as I've heard.
N-dad has no filters. Whatever is in his head rolls off his tongue, without benefit of a single gasket.
Since he talks, non-stop, some of that chatter probably included stuff of a sexual nature or, at least, inappropriate for the ears of a sensitive daughter. I can remember him talking, in detail, about his bowel movements. When I protested, he'd say, "But this is about me. You need to know this." He seemed baffled that I wasn't interested. This happened decades before his dementia. As he aged, his conversations became more scatalogical.
After my mother died and he began dating (which I encouraged), he wanted to tell me about his sexual conquests. I'd get up and leave the room.
Before my mother died from complications due to Alzheimers, her caregiver said my father had taken to complaining about his sexual frustration. He'd follow her around the tiny house and complain how he hadn't had sex for ages because my mother was no longer interested. I had a serious talk with my father. While he did stop complaining to the caregiver, he began complaining to me instead. Again, he was baffled that I wasn't interested. When I tried to explain that it was inappropriate and, more practically, what could I possibly do about it, his shoulders sagged and head drooped in a parody of the hangdog victim. "I can't never do anything right," he moaned. "Everybody is against me." (No kidding. He actually says stuff like this)
The point is, my father shoved every part of himself on me. And some of those parts were were his bodily functions and frustrated sexuality. And while I may not have been sexually abused, it still made me feel dirty. Violated. My narcissistic father had crossed some boundaries because, in his world, there are no fences.
I'd like to hear from you: your stories (long, medium, short) and thoughts and theories.
And so would some readers of this blog...who expressed their interest in this subject. Roxtarchic said it would be like opening Pandora's Box. So let's bravely open that box and see what flies out!
74 comments:
Hi Nina,
While I know my mom is a definate full blown narc I never really thought so of my dad, but he definately has some traits. As I was maturing physically my father would taunt me about my "blossoming body". He would say in front of EVERYONE (the more of an audience the better) "someone is growing some peppers" in a STUPID IDIOTIC voice!! over & over,this would be in front of adult company!! and he would repeat himself & then my brother would join in the sick perverted fun. I would be brought to tears completely humiliated while they laughed at me. Nmom did zip to stop any of this, she was probably angry the spotlight was not on her. Anyway I managed to block this out until an aunt brought it up to me a few years back, telling me how mortified she was by the way my father teased me. She told me that it was a form of sexual abuse.
My brother physically beat me on a daily basis and would grab at me chest or crotch. Of course when I confronted him on this when he was an adult, he had no recollection of any of this, my how conveinent. That is a bit hard to beleive. Terrorizing someone daily for years on end and no recollection, in fact when I brought this up to mom & dad they had very hazy memeories theselves. I guess the truth hurts the monsters so they ignore it as if it never happened.
Elizabeth
Elizabeth, I'm so sorry. Their behaviour was degrading and cruel. It's impossible to believe that they wouldn't remember something like that.
For me, it was a lots of different occurances, like pictures taken of me, when I was five, posing naked with Playboy magazines. I have been reminded that this was the 1960's and people *were* testing the rules of sexuality, so apparently I should add that to put things in perspective. There are lots of other pictures of me naked, cuddling up to one of my father's single friends who is blushing with a silly grin on his face, and other where I'm curled up with the friend napping. I'm told that was another 60's thing.
My father would keep his Playboy magazines in his bathroom in the basement starting when I was around 11 or 12 years-old. Being a curious kid...well you get the idea. My parents were OK with me perusing the magazines as long as I didn't spend "too much" time looking at them. It was certainly the wrong place to get my ideas about women's sexuality.
Among the most bizarre things, is my father encouraging me to wear a black and white Playboy bunny pin he'd brought me back from a Playboy resort, in my school photograph when I was 13 years-old. It was my first year in a new school and I was already having problems making friends. The school was in a very small, morally conservative town, and I'm sure it was not a popular decision. He found it quite funny, in a naughty sort of way. That was one of his favourite types of fun. I remember obvious looks of disapproval from some of the adults (teachers/photographers), but no one actually said anything to me. He was very please when the photos came back and showed the pin.
******
TRIGGER FOR CRUDENESS
My father didn't understand the need to not say anything he pleased when he was angry. One of the few times my mother decided to step in was when I was 10 years-old, he was angry with a woman at the bank. He yelled that he was certain if a "long hair" (his term for men who didn't keep their hair "short enough") needed her help she would, "lie down, spread her legs and beg for it". Even after my mother chastised him, he defended his choice of words.
******
******
******
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There's more, but you get the idea.
Really, I have no idea why the idea of physically touching my father was so repulsive. Despite the fact that I rarely touch anyone outside my own immediate family unless it's the standardly accepted handshake, I don't mind giving people a hug if they want one. The thought of hugging him.....ewwww. It's pretty much the same for my mother. Perhaps part of it is the hypocrasy of it. A hug to a family member should be out of love and care, not for show or as an obligation. The latter turns it into a lie.
Ella
Hmm... I feel that way about my dad - haven't decided if he's a narcissist, but he's got traits. But I can't stand to get too close because he doesn't bathe... but once a week, 'if he needs it or not.'
My mom is the N. I believe I was sexually abused when I was around 2, but the memory is too fuzzy to know for sure who did it, but I don't think my mom was involved with that...
But when I was 3, she took me into her cousin-in-law's room (it gets complicated) along with his mother. He had one wall papered with pornography. They decided the best way to deal with it was to make a joke out of it. They began pasting nipples cut from my baby bottle & cotton balls strategically while giving me a magic-marker and telling me to 'color.'
A few years later (when I was 7) an older cousin began sexually abusing me - which lasted for 5 years (with a few others, non-family, joining in here and there). Hmm... I had told my mother about this some time ago and she had never said much. Last fall, I typed up the facts of what had happened - 6 pages worth - and asked her to read it. Her main comment was, "Poor little guy," referring to him... She is in contact with him, still - likes him - calls him. And apparently doesn't see where he did anything wrong...
It sounds like this was a good topic to talk about. To Littlegirllost, cinder ella and katherine gunn, it sounds like each of you had some extremely painful experiences, and I'm sorry. No child should have to ever go through any of what you did.
Nina, I'm excited for you to do the Stockholm Syndrome post. I was the one who brought it up but Roxtarchic was the one who remembered it was called Stockholm Syndrome. I think that will also be a very interesting topic. My sister has no remorse, guilt or sadness for going NC with our parents. I agonize over it regularly and find myself feeling sympathy for my mom, the N. I'm curious as to why one child would be able to separate so easily and one can't seem to unshackle herself.
Nina-
That behavior those words ARE abusive. It is completely and totally wrong for a parent
1. to talk about their sexlife
2. your mother's actions abuse
Since you have powerof atty I suggest you hire someone to monitor dad's needs- someone to answer his calls and relay his financial needs. I would have no more contact- this is reprehensible and revolting.
No question about it.
HWS
Hi Anonymous,
was your sister the golden child for a while? That might explain it. My sister and I are the same way. I am extremely sensitive towards my mothers moods and when she is angry or upset or frustrated I cannot help but feel really really tense. I cannot help it, even when I know that her bad mood has nothing to do with me. Its just reflex that I find myself doing a mental inventory of what I could possibly have done to cause it. I feel so tense that I have a hard time breathing. My sister on the other hand just doesn't seem to give a damn. My mothers moods good or bad don't seem to affect her at all. In fact she isn't even interested in why my mother is upset.
Until my brother and I left home, she was the golden child, and my mother's proxy. I was reading the book children of the self absorbed and in it the author says that if you had a narcissistic parent you were never allowed to have healthy psychological boundaries and therefore are prone to absorbing other people's moods. I never absorb people's good moods though. When other people are in a good mood, I just feel relieved. I left home when she was around seven and when she and my mother would visit, my sister would tell me that my mum was making her miserable because she constantly criticized her.
Littlegirllost:
My mother used to do exactly the same thing. Long story short I suffered from a seizure disorder when I was younger so I wasn't allowed to lock the bathroom door in case I had an episode. When I would be having a bath sometimes she would just walk right in (we had no shower curtain) and get what she wanted and then walk right out. Or she would knock and walk in right away without giving me time to cover myself. When I started to develop this was VERY BAD. She once walked in looked at my crotch and said: "You are developing pretty quickly, you already have pubic hair!" or she kept making comments about the size of my breasts and the fact that I started my monthlies five years before she did. She used to say that my breasts were ripe. She would say that usually after I had done something wrong. That's when she would make comments on the size of my breasts and how developed I was. She'd also point at my breasts and say, " Look at these!" when we'd meet friends in public. It made me cry evey single time. She'd either insist that it was a joke or she'd get angry and tell me I shouldn't be so sensitive.
When you are a child, even if you come from a loving family, its like you have an outside life and then you have the family bubble which even in public is extremely private. I've never liked the way my mother talked about my body but I didn't know that other people didn't do that, that it was actually extremely inappropriate. When I think about it, I've never heard any other parent talk about their child in such a sexual way.
I was at the wedding of a family friend this weekend and I met a woman who I'd decided to stop speaking to. Anyway she seemed really pleasant and friendly and I started thinking gee she really isn't so bad. She asked how I was doing and for the rest of the evening, she talked about her self only pausing to make nasty comments about her son. Look at my son, doesn't he eat like a pig, you know he hasn't cut his hair in months. Hey Tony, when is the last time you combed your hair.
Bear in mind, I haven't seen or spoken to this woman in over a year. My mother used to do the same thing, mid conversation with someone she would suddenly turn and lob a granade in my direction. Public humiliation and sniper attacks. Just to cut you down a little and make you feel too self conscious to say much. Her son always seems tense, really tense. He stands with his body stiff, and his chin up. I think he is in defensive mode.
Sorry its so long
My mother also liked to tell the story of how she had her first period. she told it like it was the sinking of the titanic
Did that happen to anyone else.
Interesting post and comments. First -- Cinder Ella -- I was around for the 1960's. If your parents had a generally open attitude about nudity, that would be on thing -- families and cultures differ as to when a child should start covering themselves up. Children seem to develop a natural sense of modesty around 8 or 9 even in families that are very casual about nakendness. But taking Playboy style pictures and having you cuddle up naked next to his friends was wrong and abusive. He can't blame that on the era.
Nina, I don't think that your physical revulsion towards your father means that you were sexually abused in the usual sense. I had the same experience with my mother, and later with my ex-husband. Narcissists naturally have no boundaries, as they don't think of other people as being "real" exactly, so how could they have boundaries? I think our physical withdrawal is an instinctive reaction to their intrusiveness and casual disrespect. It's a self-protective reflex, and probably a good one. I used to often lie to my mother too, I think for the same reason. I didn't want her to know who my friends were or what I did when I was out of the house, even if it was something she would not have objected to. I just had to create some boundaries, even arbitrary ones, in order to avoid being completely assimilated into her.
Celera hit the nail on the head with I think our physical withdrawal is an instinctive reaction to their intrusiveness and casual disrespect. It's a self-protective reflex, and probably a good one.
I remember watching this science program on TV where a group of unrelated Israeli children live and grew up together, becoming as close as brother and sisters. When the scientists revisited the same group years later, now adults, they found that none of them intermarry within the group even though none of them are related. We have this natural aversion to combining familial and sex. I watch my 3 and 6 years old niece and nephew play the “marrying game” with their friends; there is at least one child instructing “he and she can’t marry because they’re brother and sister,” or “she can’t marry him because his dad and her mom is brother and sister.” It was fascinating to watch children as young as them knowing that close relations cannot and must not be that close.
With the natural aversion and the social codes that young children pick up somewhere, our parent’s action and behavior trigger a defense mechanism that tells you to “stay away” and “get away.”
I’m very glad for this 'pandora box' discussion because for the longest time I couldn’t figure out why I felt repulsed when my parents and I are in close proximity and not even touching.
Katherine gunn, I so sorry and infuriated that your mom chose her nephew over her own daughter. If I were to pull some theory out of the air, I say you mom has that sexual jealousy thing because your cousin “choose” you and not her.
HI EVERYONE: Will be making my way through the comments and responding. I have read all of them. BTW...I think it's so wonderful that some of you are talking and supporting one another in the comments section. Has anybody else noticed, except for brave Anonymous Bob, that most of us are women?
My mom always made insulting remarks about my body. You're fat, that looks terrible on you, your hair looks weird, etc. On and on and on. It started in adolescence and lasted all the way through the last time I saw her.
Of course, as I got older she diversified into insulting my choice of friends, boyfriends, career, etc. My biggest regret is that I was so trapped in her game that I didn't know anything about therapy or getting help until I got into my mid 30s. It would have helped so much. But what's done is done, can't be changed now.
She also did that thing of talking about her intimate life--or lack of it--with my dad. I got really good at daydreaming while she was talking. It took several years of hard therapeutic work as an adult to realize I could say, "Please shut up now, that's just rude."
The rude card works with Ns, actually. I've used it with other Ns a number of times. You look them right in the eye and say, "Well, I guess that's just about the rudest thing I've heard this week (day, year, etc.)" You maintain eye contact, no smile, no apology. You do not look offended--you simply pin them to the spot on the spear of their own rudeness. They don't like that, so they stop talking.
I expect Ns to be inappropriate. I also know they can control it, because I have spent enough time around people with truly uncontrollable illnesses to know the difference (god bless their hearts). It is a matter of creating rules for them and accepting no deviation from those rules. None whatsoever. It is the same thing children with borderline parents have to do.
of course this is different when you are dealing with dementia...they won't remember what you said if they understood it at all, possibly. But it is still worth trying out I think if the dementia is mild and you think you are understood most of the time.
I don't believe in letting them share stuff with us we don't want to hear. It is just another way to manipulate and control. Give them the number of a therapist (poor soul) or, better yet, another personality disordered relative with their own bag of grievous tales.
hugz
wily
From the time just before I hit puberty to the present my father has made inappropriate and creepy statements regarding sexuality, in front of me, about himself, about me. The first time I can really remember being disturbed is when I was probably 10 or 11 years old and my mother bought each of us girls a pair of really tight 80's style legging/jeans. My sister was 3-4 years younger than I was, and her leggings were black, while mine were white. I really liked mine, and I remember my sister and I both had ours on when dad came home from work, and my dad got instantly angry about mine, about them being too suggestive or something (he wouldn't have used that word, anyway). I had not hit puberty yet at all - I was a really skinny little girl wearing really skinny leggings and a big shirt, and he was really weird about the pants and insisted my mother return them lest someone think I was a slut, but he said nothing about the ones my sister wore. He was almost...jealous-acting, and that really creeped me out. About that same time, I started squirming when my friends were around him because I noticed he would always hug them close and kinda wrap his arm around them so his hand was either near or on their butts. My friends probably felt really weird about this, too, but it was never acknowledged and I always dragged them away from him so we could go play. I remember when I was maybe 14 or so having dad ask me with this creepy (pervy) look on his face if I was having sex - and later in life, after I was pregnant with my eldest son, he asked me once if I'd had sex the night before. He's always made jokes about his private parts and has told me more than once that his oldest sister used to want to have sex with him when they were teenagers. (Suuuure she did. Sounds like a creepy perv wishing.) Less on the sexual side, but more on the possessive side, I remember being a young teenager and having to go to the zoo with mom and dad, my sister, and this creepy guy & his family who tolerated dad reasonably well who went with us. Dad and I ended up walking back from one of the exhibits alone and he actually reached out and tried to hold my hand. I yanked my hand away from him and was horrified (as any 13/14 year old would be). He then loudly bemoaned how cruel I was and "Don't you like daddy anymore?" and pouted for hours. The zoo was packed, and I can't imagine how all of this seemed to an outsider. I don't think he ever would have done this in front of my mother. It was horrid. It took me years and years before I actually understood that THIS ISN'T NORMAL. I was in my 20s and starting to actually develop a life of my own where I could meet normal everyday people and envy how awesome they were in their normalness, and I can feel free to refuse to tolerate his BullS**t now, but I still get incredibly angry and amped up thinking about this and how I would feel if someone (anyone!) would treat my kids this way. So it does seem like there was alot of psycho-sexual abuse. Friggin creep.
I'm pretty new to the narcissist parent idea, but my mother certainly fits. So far as sexuality, she never had much overtly sexual to say about me or herself, or even vaguely sexual, except comments on my general body type. She was heavier than average, and I was thinner than average, so I got the comments from her about "too scrawny" and "need to eat more." The worst was about a year after my little girl shaped jeans were too small and she was pretty much forced to buy me new pants because I literally could not get them buttoned or zipped. I was about 13, and I was trying on the adult sized jeans. Well, I was under five feet tall. I was technically underweight. She had been an average (maybe slightly chubby) teen and ended up three inches taller than me. After commenting to the clerk loud enough for the entire shop to wear, "She's so tiny, isn't she do disgusting?" I got a pair of size 3s to try on, came out and told her they were too big and were falling off. Mom's response? "No child of mine is smaller than a 3." So I walk out with three new pairs of jeans that never got small enough to fit me. I quit growing the next year just like my dad did hitting right at 5'. The next time I went clothes shopping with my friends and just didn't tell her what size I'd gotten. It also worked if my Dad was there, because he didn't care what the tag said I was "Karen-sized" and needed clothes that fit. He was a good Dad. His only biggest fault was that we let Mom hide everything from him, and even co-conspired with her to do so, for so long that when I finally decided I needed him on my side it is taking a long, long time for him to reconcile the first 25 years of my life with all the information he's gotten in the last nine months. Especially as my sister has turned out just like Mom, and maintains, no matter how demonstrably false, that "Karen got everything she ever wanted and I never got anything."
I know that I wasn't sexually abused, but I wonder what kind of a kick my mother got out of us dropping our pants to be spanked. I too was shamed for masturbating, and to this day I can see the look of disgust on her face when I was caught. And I've even had nightmares, the last one not that long ago, about her walking in on me as an adult, and lecturing me. Like others here, my parents left nudie mags out on the back of the toilet in their room, and I had access to them as young as seven years old.
My mother, who was overweight but uncomfortable with her body, would be nude in front of us on a regular basis, but never my father. I don't have a pleasant image of her nude in my memories, maybe because of her own self-image. And to be honest, I don't much care for clothes, though as my son is getting older, I find myself covering up more in front of him. I've tried hard to respect my teenage daughter's body boundaries, like knocking on her door, and years ago told her to let me know if *she* was uncomfortable seeing me dress.
When I was 16, my mother and my sisters went to a cousin's birthday party, and were called back home after an hour or so. My father had rummaged through my room and found my diary. I was punished for sneaking out (which I deserved) and for losing my virginity (which I didn't deserve). Logically, I know my father was afraid that his little girl wasn't anymore, but my mother's reaction was bizarre. She came to me in my room after the huge fight and asked me in this odd calm voice if I had enjoyed myself. I answered, stunned, yes. She said, good, then you had the right experience. I still don't know how I feel about her reaction, since she had been in denial of me being a sexual being separate from her, denying my request for birth control pills months earlier, saying I didn't need them.
roxtarchick, i just wanted to comment on your comment. my mom and dad were always accusing me of being a slut and doing things I was CLEARLY not doing. I didn't even drink, but I was always accused of being on drugs, having sex, etc etc. It wasn't happening but my mom would insist it was and then bring my father into the fray. my mom would pick me up from school and just go off on how she "just knew" i was up to no good, doing something wrong, and I better fess up right then and there. I was an honor student, cheerleader, athlete, VP of SAAD, Student Council President, and volunteered my time to help others. I always came home on time (except maybe once or twice), followed the rules, and was a GOOD KID. And yet...all the accusations. It just doesn't make any sense. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think we had a similar experience in that respect. So, if you ever want to vent about it, I'm here.
roxtarchic, the thing is, you *aren't* past being bothered by it. I can tell by your post. But that is what we do as survivors of N parents. We tell ourselves and everyone else we are okay because we are so used to being told that it is NOT OKAY to have feelings, especially if they are negative feelings. Anytime I would express a negative feeling my N mom would say "stop being such a drama queen" or "get over it, it's not that bad". So now, even when I'm upset, I pretend I'm not because that's how I was trained. My therapist keeps saying "Wow, you learned really well" because I never want to be vulnerable by showing any sad emotions or expressing them in ways such as crying. That just wasn't allowed in my house without serious repercussion.
I don't want to presume to tell you how you feel, but on the flip side, I think it's probably impossible for but a very minor percentage of us survivors to say we aren't bothered by it anymore. I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds here and I hope I didn't tick you off. Just know that it's okay to still be bothered. Especially here.
roxtarchic, you remind me of my sister. she's in the same emotional place as you, it sounds like. i envy that. she can look at everything and not get all jacked up thinking about it. i still get physically sick when i let myself go there (which these days is a lot, since I'm in therapy). i have nightmares almost daily about my folks. it's like i'm letting them dole out their abusive behavior even though we are NC. sick. hopefully sometime soon i can learn to let go of all my anger and hurt and move past feeling so terrible all the time. it's only been since Thanksgiving since i finally had a definition for what was wrong with my mom, so i'm still coming to terms with everything and redefining every experience i've had before thanksgiving.
if you have any advice you can share on how you got past it, please share.
I agree with roxtarchic that half the battle is about the emotional release and half is guilt release.
Like anon, I get very sick at just the thought of my parents. I also have horrible dreams about them pretty much every night. They tend to follow one of two trends: I am still living with them and nothing ever changed or I try to confront them about the things they did and they become very violent.
Interestingly, I am having a lot more luck getting over the guilt than the emotional reactions. There was an episode on "Just Shoot Me" where a therapist told her boyfriend, "Guilt is for people who have done something wrong. Have you done something wrong? Then guilt be gone!"
I really took that to heart and every time I feel guilty, I remind myself of that quote. Maybe it could work for you too.
SORRY, EVERYONE...FOR NOT RESPONDING SOONER. MADE AN UNPLANNED OUTTA TOWN TRIP.
ELIZABETH: How alone you must have felt growing up in such a household. At least, as Alice Miller wrote, you had a witness...someone who could later confirm not only what happened, but to tell you how awful it was. Your parents and brother probably do have some recollection of it, but since they were called out on it, deny it now. I think it's a good thing that you raised the issue...even though their reply was disappointing. The more we stand up for ourselves, the better.
CINDER ELLA: Well, heck, I grew up in the sixties, too...but what you experienced sounds pretty strange, even for that time. It sounds like an excuse for bad parenting judgment.
I think most parents would NOT want their daughters to wear playboy pins...the fact that your father did shows that he couldn't put himself aside to consider how this would impact you is, well, typically self-centered.
Mmmm. My father can get quite nasty, too...and extremely personal when he's angry. He's called people short and fat and ugly and all sorts of things. When I've called him on it, he says he has the right to tell the truth.
This behavior is sooo disturbing to witness when you're a kid...it just feels like everything is out of control and scary and that YOU could be on the receiving end one day!
KATHERINE: HIM the "poor little guy?" Your mother's sympathy for your cousin is absolutely baffling! And none for her own daughter? If that's not a total lack of empathy I don't know what is. I simply don't get it...not even if it's her odd way of defending herself against the accusation of, "Where was the MOTHER when all of this was going on?"
Wow, Katherine...to be let down TWICE over such a big, awful thing like that has got to be devastating. I'm sorry.
JUNE 18 ANONYMOUS: Maybe you haven't been able to go NC because you're a different personality type from your sister? Some people seem to have an easier time protecting themselves and setting boundaries...while some of us have to struggle harder because guilt eats away at us. Also, it's possible your parents treated you differently for some reason?
Oh, sorry for confusing you and Roxtarchic! I'm looking forward to exploring SS, too.
HWS: I find it totally amazing that what is so clear in your mind - and in the minds of others - can seem like such a muddle to me. I guess I'm just so used to being around stuff like that it's been normalized...as someone else pointed out. Luckily, my Dad's behavior is becoming less toxic as his dementia is progressing fast now.
6:41 june 18 ANONYMOUS: You wrote, "She'd either insist that it was a joke or she'd get angry and tell me I shouldn't be so sensitive."
It's no wonder we constantly doubt ourselves! Instead of having a parent who could apologize for an insensitive remark, we were told it was no big deal AND we had no right to our feelings. Your mother had the right to publically humiliate you, but YOU had no right to defend yourself.
Sometimes, I've excused my parent's behavior saying...oh, they were raised so poor, had little education and were basically ignorant. But my lovely aunt was poor and undereducated, too...but she was a kind, sweet, smart woman.
I know lots of mothers of young teens, and I've never, ever heard them talk that way about their daughters. BLECH!
9:45 am ANONYMOUS: Mmmm. While my mother did not talk specifically about her period, she did not handle pain or discomfort well. Actually, both my parents exaggerated their aches, pains and ills to gain sympathy....but had none for me when I was sick.
CELERA: I loved what you wrote:
"I think our physical withdrawal is an instinctive reaction to their intrusiveness and casual disrespect. It's a self-protective reflex, and probably a good one."
WILY: You put that so well: trapped in her game. I think that's what it's like for many of us. We're trapped. They created the rules and we were trained to play by them. It's like being brainwashed.
ROXTARCHIC: Well, gee, your dear ole dad did seem to be projecting a bit...what with all the slut talk. Maybe remembering what he'd got up to when he was younger and then imagining that you were doing it, too?
It's such an EXTREME accusation.
And there's something more to this slut business that I can't quite figure out just yet...maybe it has to do with a certain possessiveness...dunno. Need to think about it some more. My mother called me a slut a couple times and I forgot about it until you talked about it.
I went through the whole "you're a slut" thing, too. That was adolescence through young womanhood. After that, it turned into "why can't you keep a good relationship in your life? you're defective."
My mother the N made an incredibly inappropriate sexual remark about my relationship with my boyfriend the last time I saw her. However, if there's anything I've learned, it's that Ns are driven by ENVY. You have something they don't have--personality, youth, looks, smarts--whatever--and they feel the need to cut you down, diminish, belittle you so that you will be smaller than they are.
N moms are, I think, particularly toxic to daughters because they are so competitive. The message they send is that you dare not do anything that upstages them in ANY way. They turn you into a demon so they can feel like a saint. The confusion arises when you wonder how the hell you could be a demon if you are an honor student living a quiet life (that was me, too).
I would say that I'm one of the ones who is largely "over" the effects of my childhood. Having no contact has really helped with that. Intensive psychotherapy has been a big part. Taking care of myself has been another big part. I was trained to try to please people who can't be pleased. I finally learned what it meant to take care of myself. I learned how to identify that feeling of a N nearby trolling for blood and how to move away and defuse it.
Thanks for keeping this blog Nina.
hugz
wily
When I went through my awkward stage as a child, my mom was always making comments about how I was fat and oddly shaped. She refused to buy me clothes because she said I was so weirdly shaped that nothing fit and insisted on making me these sack dresses. I always felt like an ugly freak. I look back at pictures of myself from that time and there is nothing odd or weird about my body shape. Just a normal little girl in the beginning stages of puberty.
My mom has always wanted us to have an open relationship and talk about sex, but it is something I have never felt comfortable with whatsoever. After my father had a stroke, she would complain openly about their sex life, or lack thereof. I remember one morning she started telling me about her and my father having sex the night before in graphic detail. I looked at her and asked, "What the hell is wrong with you?". She doesn't seem to understand why it's wrong.
When I had my first steady boyfriend in my early twenties, she would ask me blunt questions about our sex life. I refused to answer because I felt it was inappropriate and none of her business. She has asked me questions about my brother, like do I know when he lost his virginity and how many girls he's been with. It's disturbing.
When I got engaged to my husband, my mom and I were out shopping one day. My husband has very large feet and has trouble finding shoes. While we were shopping I came across a pair of shoes in his size and my mother exclaims "Oh wow, that big! I know what that means! You're a lucky girl!" Who makes comments about her future son-in-law penis size in the middle of a department store?
Recently I noticed something else about her behavior I find disturbing. She's made comments in the past about me as a young child (2-5 years old) and my cute butt and how I would pose sexy in pictures. I don't know why I never caught on to it, until she made a comment recently in front of my husband. She gave him a picture of me when I was 3 years old sitting on a car and asked him "Isn't she sexy? Look at her sexpot pose!". My husband told her no, children are not sexy. She responded, yes they are. He told her no, only a pedophile would think so.
Wily: I totally agree with your comment...
N moms are, I think, particularly toxic to daughters because they are so competitive. The message they send is that you dare not do anything that upstages them in ANY way.
I have been experiencing this a lot lately with my mother because I have had some major life events (engagement, wedding, baby shower) and it seems she always finds a way of ruining it for me. We have lied to her about our baby's due date because we don't want to take the chance of her making a surprise visit and ruining that experience as well.
Chloe,
WOW WOW WOW..............
I too dream of the same scenario...
I am back living in the house I grew up in with my parents and brother. Very disturbing dreams. I wake up mentally exhausted.
Like anon, I get very sick at just the thought of my parents. I also have horrible dreams about them pretty much every night. They tend to follow one of two trends: I am still living with them and nothing ever changed or I try to confront them about the things they did and they become very violent.
Wily,
N moms are, I think, particularly toxic to daughters because they are so competitive. The message they send is that you dare not do anything that upstages them in ANY way. They turn you into a demon so they can feel like a saint. The confusion arises when you wonder how the hell you could be a demon if you are an honor student living a quiet life (that was me, too).
My mom was extremely competetive, so much so that I had been told she slept with my boyfriend while I was vationing in Florida!!!!!!They both denied it, but looking back he also was a narc. Upon my return they had a serious dislike for one another, but I was in the dark, I mean who would have thought in their wildest dreams that would have happened??
No contact is the way to go, but they still haunt me in my dreams.
BILLIE: Well, your Dad was pretty consistent in his behavior and your memory is crystal clear. At least there is no doubt in your mind...not that THAT is much comfort. And you summed it up so well: psycho-sexual abuse.
What really struck me is your father's reaction when you pushed his hand away...the sulking. That is so incredibly childish. And manipulative. No wonder we do battle against guilt. I mean, I know my mother used to do that sort of thing all the time...and my father had his hangdog victim routine...but it's more striking when you see ANOTHER parent do it...it's just clearer.
KAREN: I think I know how you felt about the size thing...and your mother's bizarre insistence about clothes. I'm adopted...and my self-centered adoptive mom couldn't stand the fact that I was small-boned and skinny. And she couldn't stand my hair...which is super thick and I have LOTS of hair. Both of these things I could not help...just as you couldn't help being your size. Yet, it somehow seemed to personally offend our mothers...so they would go on and on about it..as if talking could change the facts. In a way...they were rejecting our reality...US. That really hurts. And it was a constant onslaught, too. I don't know about you, but as a result, internalized I was very unappealing and, well, wrong.
I was raised an only child, so I don't have the experience of having to deal with a sibling...but if your sister ended up like your mom...that's gotta be tough. I'm so glad to hear that your Dad is on your side.
PAVLOVSCAT: You raised the issue of one of the greatest advantages of coming to grips with being raised by a narcissistic parent or parents: stopping the cyle and making sure we are more conscious parents. I have teenagers, too...and all of this "discovery" has helped guide me in my dealings with my girls. I make a lot of mistakes and when I do, I make sure to apologize. Will have to add this topic to our list of future discussions because it's making a positive out of a negative!
JUNE 19, 8:10 ANONYMOUS: I just wanted to comment on your comment...not so much as it pertains to Roxtarchic, but on the general idea of what you wrote. Anybody who is new to the notion of narcissistic parents...and how they've impacted us...ought to read this. A couple years ago, I think it would be fair to say I hadn't had many real and honest emotions. I actually loathed my parents, but had repressed my loathing so much it was making me sick. So thank you for writing that.
BLUE: Good move lying about your due date. Your mother would surely, somehow, ruin it somehow. My cousin, who has an extreme n-mom, had her mother over to stay while she was having her child. Instead of her mother helping HER, her mother had well staged hypoglycemic attacks. My father behaved similarly when my children were born. Long story, but he managed to ruin the time that should have been spent enjoying my newborns.
I think after being raised by narcissists, and learning over time about all those pesky little "emergent" memories, it would be hard not to think something more inappropriate or violating had been going on. I remember at one point noticing that if I could get away from him (n-step-father) and his current tyrannical rage, and get up to my bedroom, he wouldn't step over the threshold. He would still be yelling and spitting and slamming the door from the hallway, but he wouldn't cross that line. I remember finding some comfort in the fact that I had found an escape, but also realizing that he was making a conscious choice NOT to do something, which made me realize he was willing to do anything he wanted up to probably committing a crime. That made me sick.
Recommending a book
"Self-Defeat and Self-Realization" by Samuel J. Warner, Ph.D. Published in 1966
gspvpenoI feel like you Nina, where my father actually didn't physically touch me, but I still feel like I've been sexually abused somehow. Up till I found your blog, I thought that I was going crazy thinking this stuff to myself. But seeing that other people went through the same things I have, makes it easier for me to realize that I am not crazy and imagining these things. That stuff that happened to us is REAL.... and it hurts.
Both of my parents are Narcs. I sometimes wonder how I have survived my childhood. At one point I couldn't take it anymore and was seriously considering suicide. I must have been around 14-15 yrs old. I just came to a point of my life where I felt so hopeless that I didn't see any other way out.
I didn't see my parents for over 3 years. Our major breakup happened because they didn't approve my second pregnancy. I actually had a panic attack before telling them about being pregnant. And to no surprise my big news were met with criticism towards me and my husband.
I am trying to make sense of things now and been reading a lot, but it is still hard for me. Both, my husband and me have a lot in common in our upbringing and we try to help each other to get over the hurt and move on with our lives.
***
Your blog is great and if some Narcs accidentally stop by and don't like what they have to hear, so what! I am tired of catering to their demands! I choose my and my family's happiness.
LON
Blue… OMG, about the showers and babies and weddings!!! You are so right!!! First of all, I am the only child – and my mother didn’t throw me ANY kind of surprise parties. It was my husband’s family who tried to be civil.
My mother actually was all upset all through my wedding shower - for no reason at all. And then on a way home in a car she gave me hell and it made me feel so guilty and terrible. (I don’t even remember what the fight was about).
Then a week before my wedding my parents declared to me that they decided not to go to my wedding. They did change their mind like 2 days before the wedding.
At my first baby shower she was horrible. She wanted me to walk around everywhere with her and she would cry and pout to me that she doesn’t really know anybody there, and she is just so poor and upset that she even has to be present there, and kept on wanting to leave.
Then she swore to me that she will help me with the baby… but I guess feeling the pressure of the baby coming, a month before my son’s birth, she had a fight with me and didn’t talk to me. My father dragged her to the hospital. Even there she was pouting. She didn’t have anything to do with the baby or me for 2 more months.
With my second child… forget it… they didn’t even approve me being pregnant (as I wrote above). And that led to a major fight and break up. Thank GOD, I am so happy it happened. I feel better not being under their constant judgment and control and criticism towards absolutely EVERYTHING. I find it hard to get over certain hurts. I think most of my problem lies in that I don’t really know what NORMAL family is like!
LON
OMG, where do I start? All my life I have crawled like a snake back to these people (narc parents). Wanting a pat on the head, but getting kicked in the gut. Nothing is ever worthy enough, good enough. I am so surprised that I actually turned out to be a functioning women in society. Mother is strung out on Ativan. My dad is a venomous pit of hatred for every race and creature that doesn't bow down to his standards. I grew up constantly being slandered by his filthy mouth. He would call me a bitch, slut whore, door knob (everyone got a turn). My husband told him that if he every disrespected me again that he would rake his face across the blacktop. Needless to say, daddy dearest went down our church directory and phoned every member and told them my hubby was a hypocrite. Yeah, most of you know what I am going through and been going though. The many nights that I just wish they would go away. Go anywhere, who cares, but then that certain part of you wants to be accepted by your parents. What a Toxic, Vile, Sick relationship. I have NEVER met anyone that has parents such as me. Yes I have.....my brother and my sister. See, I have a younger brother that is the Golden Child. You know doctor....big house...plastic wife who hates the family. They are the POA's of Mommy and Daddy's estate. Yes, the money thing. You know....all the money that the parents sit on and don't offer to help anyone or anybody out with it. The money that hopefully, one day the nursing home will suck dry and Golden boy and his Goddess wife will be stuck putty diaper guard on mommy and daddy dearest chaffed hind ends. Yeah, I am the daughter who has been married 4x because I was brought up cutting people out of my life if they didn't play by my rules. My other brother was called Idiot, Stupid Retarted and he has about as much self - esteem as a rock. Anyone can mow over him and he let's 'em. Oh, and my sister. I just meet her about 5 years ago. See mother got knocked up at 17 and I have a 50 year old sister, who I adore. She has my back in anything. Mother hates the fact that I speak to my sister, much less have a relationship with her. See, my sister is mother's dirty little secret that she walked away from years ago. Now, mother runs around getting her feelings hurt and demands apologies... I asked hey have you every apologized to Diane for dumping her on a door step. Yeah, that slipped out. Needless, to say I am on the crap list again. See, that's that whole thing now. I am not some defenseless 10 year that they can beat around, or I am not this 19 year old bank teller in which my dad would call me and say, "the house doors lock at midnight...don't lay around sucking some guys dick all night". I was traumatized. I didn't even thing about that back then. That comment still haunts me when I looked at his hateful, wrinkled face. I can't stomach them. It takes every inch of my being to even walk through their door way on a good day. You know why.....?? Because everything they say and do is a big show. There is NO truth or true emotions in their body. They live an untouchable and unchangeable life. You can set your watch by the fact that every 6 - 12 months...they hate your guts. Now it's my turn but they are actually doing me a favor. You see, the last time we fought, I didn't speak to them for 2 years and it was the best and the most peaceful time of my life. Now that I am on their crap list again....I guess I will receive another well deserved vacation.
Signed: A product of Narcissistic Parents
I know exactly what you are talking about with the "no boundaries" thing with you n-father as my father was the same way. He would go on and on about his bowel movements, stomach problems, bloody noses, how prositution isn't a big deal and should be legalized, his conquests, etc... if I tried to tell him I didn't want to listen, he would play the victim too. He couldn't fathom why I didn't want to listen! The last day I seen him volunterly (he is in his 50s and I am now 27) he took me to the lawyers office, before then we stopped at a diner to eat. He was going on and on about his bloody nose and how he found a revoluntary way to stop the bleeding and that he would give me the medication to use, telling me how often I would use it, obsessively!! I couldn't take it anymore, between the years of physical abuse, then moved out continuing onto the emotional and verbal... then learning about his narcissism, knowing there was no hope... it was time to let go! But yeah, there were many occassions where I felt violated especially that day he picked me up to take me to the lawyer (didn't see him for a month or so) and asked me "did you gain or lose weight?" what about me, how do I look?" and the way he had this arm around the passengers side of the seat where I was sitting when he was driving! So its been a year and I divorced him! They are truly sick, twisted individuals!
Id like to leave another comment after reading through the posts. I think that when you have these type of parents things that are done overtly "such as my dad having this arm around my side of the seat" felt dirty... someone from the outside wouldn't understand but with an abuser, everything is about power and control. My father also called me a slut, bitch, whore... you name it! He would spit in my face, shove me around. When I moved out at 20 I "forgave him" because he put on the "nice act" again... it was years of doubting my reality when he would make verbal, emotional and sexually abusive comments towards me. I finally woke up one day and asked myself "what am I doing?" I constantly tried to "fix" the problems and communicate but my reality was always denied. This is before I discovered narcissism, and now I look back and laugh about how much time I wasted thinking I could change him. I think probably the only way I have any compassion and forgiveness is the fact they truly have a condition and no self worth. Its sad though as children that we didn't get the care and love we deserved, but its a blessing that we discovered this and can help make our lives better. I don't feel sorry about not taking care of my dad when he is old and grey, my need for emotional saniey and health comes first. And, as I read back on the posts I think it is common with the families and how they hold inherences over everyones heads, but the funny part is I wasn't going to play a puppet only to discover in the long run, anyone who truly stood by them would really get nothing, and even maybe a little bit isn't worth it. The money isn't worth it... nothing is worth your self worth.
Pav--
I too was shamed. I think I must have been about 4 or 5.
My mother said "If I ever catch you doing something like this again, I am taking you to the doctor." Scared, I replied "No, I don't want to go to the doctor. I don't want any shots." I was so scared.
She said "Not that kind of doctor...I will take you to a doctor to see what's WRONG with our head!"
Thank you Nina and all for sharing,
I am just coming to terms with the idea that my father is Narcissistic. It all exploded several years ago when I divorced for a N-ex-husband who was having affairs. My father, who offered no support emotionally or financially, actually seemed angry that I left my ex. As another posted mentioned, yes, financially too. My ex left me without a car and my father who had 3 didn't even lend me one because he "might need" a spare to save on gas. Lovely. Somehow, I think, my ex was like his golden child. One N honoring another? Since that happened, I have wondered what the heck is wrong with my father. It seemed like I ceased to exist for him: every conversation became about him, he never asked if I was ok, was eating, had a way to the store or work, etc.
I got very lucky later on an met a very normal, loving man and married again. We recently learned we were having a child, a boy, and I told my father expecting some sort of happy reaction. He made a cutting comment about me deciding not to wait to find out the gender and then changed the comment to himself. I sat in baffled silence, the occasional "sure--yes--of course" being uttered as he went on about his work, etc. I left that conversation thinking my father was not a father. What, I wondered, was he. I felt sick. There are only three of us left alive in my family, so it was kindof a shock that he could care less about a new baby.
I am comforted by the other posters having similar experience--and saddened for them too. I also had a N-mom, but she did the world a favor by committing the most selfish act of committing suicide.
Thank you to all for your posts.
Oh my god I bursted laughing out loud. My father always went for the "I can't do anything right" "Everyone's against me". I don't remember any talk about his sexuality, I guess I closed it outside my mind. But we had to listen (preferably with a smile and understandable nods) everything he said. And he said a lot. I mean I was 7 years old and already a shoulder of his heartbreak relationships. It's alright but if I said against or even seemed bored of his and him, my dad would start whining or get mad. I didn't know what it was but always felt he was such a crybaby.
There is hope. I have finally separated, permanently, from my N-parents. I did not abandon them - as they would probably describe it - but they finally succeeded in pushing me away. My husband supported my decision. Our marriage is healthy with good boundaries, love and caring. But it comes at a price - my first marriage was also to an N. causing many years of pain and sadness.
We draw the "family" line in our culture arbitrarily. Do we choose to define "family" as those who are encouraging and support us? Or do we consider family to be those one-generation away from us genetically? Ultimately, we are linked to everyone genetically if you go back far enough. Why does our culture choose to draw a line at some places and not others? It is a choice.
Now that my N-parents (actually any/all N-people, including those in my family of origin who are N's) are out of my life it really frees up energy for other activities like writing, enjoying healthy relationships, feeling joy in life. I never knew that life could be so joyful!
I come from a large family with many N-siblings, some aunts & uncles are narcs too. I observe that my siblings, cousins, nieces & nephews suffer from migraines, anxiety attacks, anorexia, lots of addiction, etc. My adult sisters will still try to get attention/affirmation from my parents, which of course can NEVER happen.
It has been about 5 years now that I have learned healthy boundaries and how to be responsible for my own interior state. The awful memories are fading. My life is 100 times better. Spend your time doing things you enjoy with people YOU want in your life. Don't let N-people take your time or energy. They aren't worth it!
May all of you have a life of joy, love, abundance and fulfillment - you deserve it!
Sexual inappropriateness, well yes, definitely. My father things that visiting prostitutes is completely normal and liked to tell me about his 'adventures' from about the time I started to approach puberty. He also despises wives, and in his world any woman who marries a man and has children and is therefore dependent on the man financially etc 'deserves everything she gets', which is to say, to be abused physically and verbally, starved of money and constantly humiliated by his infidelities. Oh yes, and he used to tell me that this was feminism. He also used to play be against my mother, treating me to endless lecutres on his world view, coupled with lost of physically attention. None of which I wanted, particularly as this drove my mother crazy with jealousy, to the point that she went beserk one night and threw me out of the house after accusing me of trying 'to steal him from her'. I was 17 and had no were to go and didn't see them again for 9 years. I loved reading when I was a girl (escape to another world!) and about the same time as I got to hear about his advertures he started giving my some of his books to read - all very adult and inveariably about sex. I couldn;t stand them and couldn;t read them, whcih miffed him a great deal. Needless to say I protected myself by making sure I was NEVER at home with him alone, and i protected my friends by cutting them off an only every talking to them at school. My mother was also obsessed with my periods and made me show her my (bloodied) pads, however I also wasn't allowed to use tampons even though she did, so I shoplifted them and hid them. Oh, I could go on and on and on - but just two more comments, my father also also addicted to internet porn and, very very creepily, wouldn't stop staring at my chest on the one occassion i breastfed my son in front of him.... i feel sick just remembering it. Needless to say I too have cut them off, no contact now for over two years, adn if feels better every day.
During my senior year of high school (this was a couple years before the divorce), my family and I went downtown to see the Christmas displays and do some shopping. I was goofing off in a store and telling my dad jokingly to shut up. I guess this set something off in him and he drug me out into the streets of Chicago screaming at me that I was a slut, a whore, a bitch, and a cunt. I don't think I've ever truly forgiven him for that.
When I was 11 and had first started getting periods, at the dinner table he would look at my mother and say "Is she on the rag AGAIN?" and the tears would start streaming down my face because he had crossed a serious line there. My mother said "I really don't think that is an appropriate thing to say" and he would storm away from the table saying "Don't you tell me what's appropriate!" Then there was another time at the dinner table, when I was around that age and just starting to develop breasts, and I scratched somewhere near my armpit and he said "Does you titty itch?" I stormed upstairs to my bedroom and heard my mother scream at him to go up there and apologize. He did, but I just looked at him, utterly horrified that he would even think of saying such a thing to me, his own daughter. He then stormed back downstairs because I didn't forgive him right away. (That's his thing, if he apologizes to you and you do not forgive him instantly, he gets very angry. He thinks that forgiveness if something that should come instantaneously, when that is not always the case).
My dad always said inappropriate things to my sister and I, and at least I was creeped out. He never touched us inappropriately, but him making comments about my developing breasts and my period was way out of line....nevermind the whole Chicago incident.
Hello, I just stumbled upon this blog a few minutes ago and while it seems to not be my exact problem I am sure that I have a narcissistic father. I am presently reading one of the books in the recommended reading list and that's how I first came to discover my father was self-absorbed and that other people dealt with some of the same issues that I do. I just turned 24 and am dealing with some issues with both of my parents but mainly my father. Everyday is a struggle and thankfully I was able to move away when I was 18. I am depressed, so people tell me, and can cry at the drop of a hat. The situation with my parents really affects my day-to-day life and can get me pretty down sometimes. I googled "narcissistic parents" and found this blog. My specific situation, besides the narcissistic father, is the idea that I am an only child. This really puts a kink in things. I won't go into any real specifics here but is there anyone else out there with the specific situation of being an only child with a narcissistic parent and a follow-along parent? I could really use some input from other people. Thanks! As far as this specific post goes I can sort of understand the sexual thing. I cannot say that my parents ever sexually abused me but sex is a pretty prevalent thing for both of my parents and my father never really let me be a girl while growing up. I would have to say though that recently (the past year) my dad has been taking a step over the line when it comes to the distasteful words he uses to refer to parts of the anatomy (use your imagination here) and when it comes to describing women. He tends to objectify them and make them sound clueless. He thinks he's a Casanova and that all girls desire him. I have yet to figure out where that came from or what it does for him. My research continues. Thank you for all coming together and discussing things that are pretty sensitive and hurtful. It really gives hope for others that at some point we can all move past this and learn to lead happy loving lives. Thank you! -L
I can totally understand nina when she says she felt violated without even being touched.
In my family, my narc. mother was the head of the household-no doubt. My father, who has some narc. traits, is a self-absorbed, alcoholic who lets his wife push him around.
He was always basically indifferent to me. He made it clear that he didn't think much of me and that having me to raise at his advanced age was a nuissance. However, sometimes he could be almost kind to me. Overall, he didn't hound, verbally abuse, and bully me like my mother did.
BUT, there were some things that when I look back now I realize were inappropriate. I remember rubbing powder on him in bed when I was about 5. Then, everything was pretty mellow until I hit puberty.
When I was 12 I found a home movie tape that he had made of me walking in shorts. He zoomed in on my rear end.
Another one was when I was about 16 I was having period problems and had to see the gynecologist for an exam. He took me to the doctor and insisted on going into the exam room with me knowing I was going to be in stirrups. I was horrified and refused to go in if he was going to be in there. I thought his sudden concern for my health was pretty strange considering he usually barely looked at me.
There were a few things like that that still leave me wondering what exactly happened, was there sexual abuse or not? Do those things count as abuse or are they just creepy weirdness?
I totally understand my narc. mom, but my father is still an enigma to me all these years later.
First, let me say THANK YOU NINA for creating this space for all of us. One of the worst things about being raised by an N is learning to doubt yourself & feeling as though you must be prepared to preemptively defend your every thought, perception, need, & feeling.
I have a malignant N father, bordering on sociopath. This thread in particular is a HUGE help to me. Just knowing I'm not alone in the feelings of utter violation helps. Part of what enrages me is that I had much older half siblings who knew full well what happened but never did anything to intervene and help.
Being humiliated for going through puberty, being forced to hold my dad's hand while walking in public well into my teens, so much of this is like bits of my own life story.
Gerry (I don't refer to him as "Dad" anymore) had many disgusting habits, among them squeezing, pinching, and patting his kids' (8 children from 3 different marriages) butts, sometimes so hard it was painful, scary, and/or humiliating if we were in public. He would joke about it when we would react. (This is the classic trick of a manipulator: to cast any reaction as overreaction in order to negate your boundaries & define what ought to be the "acceptable" response) Out of nowhere, sometimes he would come up behind one of us, slide his hand inside pants/skirt and underpants, and squeeze our butts. Sometimes he would squeeze more of one cheek from the underside so that his disgusting, rough, cigarette-yellowed fingers would be slightly touching my vulva (4, 5 years old @ the time). Sometimes this would be accompanied by him leaning down and giving me a slow, wet kiss on the ear, slowly closing his eyes and inhaling, sort of breathing me in and holding me to him, as though making love. Then he would make this little smack sound on my ear as he was letting the top edge of my ear out of his mouth, and for years & years I would hear that sound in my mind, and get triggered when I heard similar sounds from people kissing in public nearby. To me somehow that felt like he had gotten inside of me. That intimate sound seemed to say, "You are a part of me, you belong to me, you have no rights." Mind you, I lived w/ my mom (parents divorced when I was an infant) for most of my life, & typical N, Gerry was self-absorbed, so it was either extreme emotional coldness, blaming & shaming, or feeling violated & completely overwhelmed by this man who was basically a stranger randomly pulling me into his lap when he swung to the other extreme: inappropriately intimate with a child he had emotionally & financially abandoned.
(will continue in next post)
(Continued Story of Gerry the N Dad)
Also, because he smoked so much, he stank. A lot. But if you show it in your face when he gets close with his stinky breath, he reacts & then it's about how you're making HIM uncomfortable. Another hallmark N behavior: they do something bad, but if you react, it's about how you're hurting THEIR feelings, and making a situation bad for THEM, because it hurts them so much that you can't recognize how indisputably perfect they are. Once Gerry actually got on the verge of tears and said, "One day you will realize you were blessed with a perfect father." They do something wrong, you carry the shame and blame. A life of funhouse mirrors.
There are many disgusting memories, but one of the worst was when my half sister's dog died. It was the family dog, really, but my half sister had gotten the dog as a puppy and loved it dearly. It had been hit by a car, suffered terribly, and died a miserable death. She was about 9 and understandably distraught.
We were in the family room and Gerry pulled her onto his lap, facing away from him. She was too weak with tears to fight him off, not that she would have anyways, considering the unspoken N family rules (#1 being NEVER CHALLENGE THE N!) He rested his hands on her hips and stroked her hair and kissed the back of her neck, down her back (she was wearing a camisole). Slow, wet kisses, at times reaching down and squeezing her inner thighs. I was sick to my stomach at the whole thing but frozen and not sure what to say. I finally said, "Maybe she needs to be alone right now." to w/c he responded, "Maybe you should go to your room and let me be with MY daughter. Let US be a family without your meddling." (This was a hit at me since at the time he was married to her mother, his third wife, and this was his way of letting me know I would be punished by being disowned for a while - one of his strategies of shaming & belittling.)
Another thing I think of now - now that I've read other posts here about children's intuition - is how I always sort of thought of him as someone who was sexually interested in his daughters. My biological mom has severe Borderline Personality Disorder, and one of the blatant lies she made up is that for a time he was MARRIED to his eldest daughter (born of wife #1). The story goes, when she turned 13, he married her and kept her as a wife on the side even though he was already married to his actual wife #3. At age 9, I believed it. I mean, I knew it was abnormal of course, but I believed it could be happening with Gerry.
(Continued - Story of Gerry the N Dad - Part 3 of 3)
One of the other, most telling memories, of Gerry, happened after Mass one day when I was 14 or 15. It was Sunday evening & we were all forced to go, because it was the socially acceptable thing to do, even though Gerry was not truly Catholic - he was on his third marriage, abusive, alcoholic, and at the time living outside the United States to avoid paying child support and alimony to his first 2 wives. He suddenly shot me a strange look as Mass was ending, and I had no idea what I had done wrong. As we were walking out and everyone was saying goodbye to another, he suddenly came up behind me, grabbed me by the inner arm, and pulled me into a hallway, to tell me I had shamed the family by looking bored in church. I don't know how this could be, since no one could see me from where we were sitting. But, that's an N - from time to time, they decide you're not deifying them enough, or somehow you are embarrassing them & they will strike with ferocity. He spat in my face, told me I was the worst thing that ever happened to him, and when I tried to walk away, grabbed me by the inner arm, pinching where it hurts and dragging me back to pin me against the wall so he could continue hissing quietly in my face so that the people leaving Mass (!) would not hear him. I finally said, "It's not true. Stop." and he punched me, and then walked away, snapping back into social mode, actually shaking the priest's hand and leaving his daughter physically and emotionally bleeding in a hallway inside a church.
The thing is, this is the memory that I prefer to keep of him, because it is the most honest. It is him showing his colors for once. The worst thing about how he would be so intimate with me that it was a LIE. N experts say that any physical affection for an N is about annexation of the other, that it's all autoerotic, they basically masturbate their egos using others' bodies, etc. Actually, I think in the case of Gerry, he got to delude himself from time to time about having some connection with his children, toward whom he was otherwise RUTHLESS. He would occasionally feel the need to satisfy his sense of being close to us and foist himself upon us.
I prefer to think of him spitting in my face and punching me because that's the one memory that doesn't make me feel like I'm crazy and incapable of perceiving the truth. People outside the family, as with most dysfunctional families, thought he was a wonderful man and we were happy kids. When I think of him trying to shame, belittle, degrade, and physically harm me, it's just not as confusing as it was when I was so little and so defenseless and had to accept his violation as "love".
Hi
I think my mom is N too. And I too feel repulsed to be near her. There has been no sexual abuse. I suppose its a mental distancing due to her absolutely selfish behaviour all the time. My dad has always supported me even though he cant stand up to her for his own sake. But I am assertive whenever she gets too critical and personal. Put rules and draw the line. Calmly. It works. If am too successful she gets envious so I hide my successes from her. And usually dont discuss personal matters with her at all. She has no idea what is appropriate and what is intrusive. She is impossible to please and thinks its everyone else's duty to keep her happy and do her bidding. She says am a difficult child coz I refuse to do her bidding from time to time. She can be very cunning and manipulative.
There's a Christmas morning family picture from when I was 5 that I "ruined" because I was refusing to let my father hold me. I struggled to get away from him, I look angry, my mom looks surprised/shocked, my older brother is oblivious, my father looks furious. He was determined to hold me in the pic & nothing would change his mind.
Year later, when I was 19 and in my second year of college - and trying to restart my musical training after I quit in high school - he started accusing me of planing to write a book "when you're famous" accusing him of having sexually molested me when I was little. To this day, I have trouble dating; I feel worthless, ugly, unloveable. "Actresses are sluts who will spread their legs for anyone" is a comment he made when I was 15 and on my way to my morning acting class. It didn't help that Dad also told me to move to a mountain & stay away from other people because no one would ever want to be around me. (and I am constantly followed by men telling me how beautiful I am; I've even been mistaken for Yasmin Bleeth). I don't know what his problem is with me. LOL, I can't believe I just typed that, even now I blame myself when I know intellecutally its his problem, not mine.
Anon from Oct 7: OMG! That's one that Gerry the N Dad would always worry about - us writing books when we were older. I'm a writer, half-sister's an actress & he was always afraid of a tell-all coming out!
That's the thing about Ns that makes it impossible to forgive: they DO know that what they are doing is wrong, because they are so concerned with keeping it secret.
Just found this site--thank God--now I don't have to go crazy alone! I'm in my middle 50s, and my parents have recently moved to my hometown after many years of living out of state. I have always had panic attacks while visiting with my dad--mostly because HE NEVER SHUTS UP--not for a moment or an hour or a minute! But I had a hard time understanding why there was this physical repulsion. I had the same upbringing as most of the other posters--innappropriate boundaries and remarks. We had alcoholism thrown in for good measure. Now I find myself counting how many times in a visit he says "titty". I'm his daughter for God's sake! I have taken to locking my front door and not answering when he stops. I'm scared and I don't think I have any reason to be, but I can't seem to get over this fear of having to see both of them. My siblings have these feelings in varying forms, but they have better ways to cope i think. (They drink a lot.)
I have always felt so retarded for having the illusion that my dad sexually abused me but not remembering anything that explains the extreme feeling of creepiness. Of course, he is narcissistic and mentally imbalanced beyond that. He stalked me on public records and showed up at my DWI trial last week. I haven't spoken to him in four years and my sister told him to leave before I saw him. It is so very great to know that I'm not the only one who grew up with N parents.
To the person who mentioned being an only child. yes, I know your pain. Both my parents are narcissists and I am an only child. I worry what will happen when they're old and inform. It will be up to me to take care of them or be cursed as a hateful and ungrateful daughter.
My mother also had no boundaries when I was growing up and was an exhibitionist. Gender really has nothing to do with sexual abuse by a parent. That icky feeling can take place between a mother and a daughter just as well as a father and daughter. its in the intent of the parent and their behavior that makes it inappropriate and how the child perceives it.
ACCIDENTAL INSOMNIAC,
It IS weird to have those feelings...and no actual recollection. Frightening and disorienting. I was sooo ashamed to feel so repulsed...so guilty...I think it just adds to our overall sense that we are defective.
At least we know we're not alone...and not crazy!
I KNOW my N-father sexually abused me because I absolutely feel the same way about him! I look in pictures and remember feeling totally terrified in that way. Embarrassed, shamed, guilty, yet wanting affection and love too.
He was already physically and emotionally abusive to me and my sister. Me taught my brother to abuse us too. I have some broken memories from childhood and some from my adolescence, but I believe that I was sexually abused as a child.
--POSSIBLE TRIGGER: Sexual Abuse--
My father took it upon himself to be my tutor while I was in junior high. Apparently, having a night school Master's degree in Business meant that he was some sort of genius. (thats a story for another day!) He used to make me sit at the kitchen table until the wee hours of the morning, to make sure that someone "as stupid as I was" was getting their homework finished. Of course, it had to pass his standards. When I was done, he used to try to end things on a good note. He'd be mean and cutting throughout the evening and then would be cheerful at the end...as if nothing ever happened. He used to give me these "love pats" which were considered equal to that of small physical gesture of affection, except these were always done in a way that were inappropriate; like on my thigh or buttocks. They felt more like sexual spanks and it always made me feel so disgusting. Once, I got fed up with it and I told him to cut it out and that I didn't like it. He said, "You're too sensitive! Can't your own father show you love?"
When I was much younger, he used to monitor my music practice. I used to be so terrified of failure that I could not even put my lips to my instrument. Tears rolling down my cheeks, I'd squeak out a few shaky and imperfect notes. He'd have a cow and start berating me, saying things like, "You stubborn bitch! You'll never be good at this!" And I believe it because I quit that instrument in high school.
My brother used to tickle torture me when I was little too. I never thought of this as sexual abuse until my therapist pointed it out. My brother used to pin me down and simply tickle me until I couldn't breathe anymore. He was much, much stronger than me! My sister would have to physically pry him off in order for it to stop. I felt completely and utterly helpless when he did this. Once, I was tickled so hard and long that I urinated on myself. I was so mortified and ashamed, especially after he called me a "baby" and "disgusting". The tickle torture always had to end in desperation and tears. I will never forget the sadistic smile he had on his face afterward. I truly believe that he is a narcissist too; moreso by creation and reinforcement from my N-parents. My N-mother used to say that he would "tease me", but never torture me. My brother was the Golden Child; he could do no wrong and I was always the bad girl who never did anything right! Talk about compartmentalization!
To this day, my skin crawls when my father tries to hug me. I can't say "I love you" to my father, mother or brother because I just don't and they have done nothing to deserve it.
-Susie
I have experienced this sort of intense physical revulsion to my mother's touch, and in my case it definitely has nothing to do with sexual abuse. There was none. I think there are two factors:
1) Narcissists intrude on their children's boundaries. For example, my mother initially tried to keep track of my menstrual periods. To this day, if she observes me swallowing a pill, she will demand to know what it is. She is obsessed with the notion that mother birds chew their food and then transfer it to their babies' mouths; it's clear that she fantasizes about being able to do such a thing. The lack of physical boundaries creates a PHYSICAL revulsion that is not necessarily about sex.
2) Narcissists routinely cast all of the major figures in their lives, including and especially their children, in quasi-romantic roles. I am 30-odd and my mother still sends me quasi-romantic Valentine's Day cards or leaves quasi-romantic messages on my answering machine. This year, I had social plans for the evening of Valentine's Day and had to extricate myself from a telephone conversation in order to keep my appointment and oh, was she mad! Being forced into a quasi-romantic role creates pre-emptive physical revulsion because the non-N child fears, on some subconscious level, that sexual demands may be made at some point.
SUSIE,
What you wrote about your dad? Creeepy. Your brother tickle torturing you....that IS absolutely abusive...disguised as no-harm "fun."
Of course, any protestation always seems to be met with the, "you're too sensitive" reply...and "i'm just trying to show you that I love you" routine.
It's a wonder some of us never went ninja on them!
RACHEL....
Whoa...I don't know what's eewier...yuckier...one's father crossing boundaries...or one's mother acting weirdly quasi-romantic and acting jealous.
I guess it's a draw...both awful in their own particular, strange ways.
I'm surprised more women haven't mentioned their n-moms trying to keep track of their menstrual cycles...fertility...pills...
I do remember a HUGE drama surrounding my first period. I didn't tell my mother immediately. I stuffed a washcloth and went back out riding my bike...I didn't want to be bothered. When my mother found out she started crying and said I'd hurt her feelings by not telling her...that I never told her anything...and on and on...she shut herself in her room and then didn't talk to me for days. Sheesh. She simply couldn't see that I was just a kid more interested in riding a stupid bike!
To the person who left a comment about being 24, and an only child.
YES, I'm going EXACTLY what you are going through.
I've only just found this blog, and have been reading over and over again (and really all the comments!) over the past few days.
I'm 27, and great up with a complete narcissist father. He has always been grossly inappropriate when it comes to women and sex (he is still married to my mom, who is not a narcissist, but she is an enabler that allows it to happen).
From a young age, my Dad would blatantly stare at womens bodies in public, and make comments about them in front of my and my mother. He loved commenting about boobs in particular (even one time, a woman was wearing a baggy t shirt that didn't even have a v neck, and he commented on her awesome "rack").
I moved to Europe three years ago (talk about moving as far away as you can) and thankfully now only see him once a year. His inappropriateness has only gotten worse with age, and he now speaks to my boyfriend about women (my boyfriend is very sweet, and it makes him SO uncomfortable).
Most recently, we were all out to dinner, and my Dad started on this story about being approached by a prostitute (he loves walking around in Las Vegas by himself, as he gets mistaken for a "lonely business man" by hookers, he thinks its awesome), he described the prostitute as "museum quality". He said this in front of my mother and I.
Also, growing up, when he would see women he thought attractive, he would nudge me to have a look myself, as if I were one of his buddies. How is that appropriate?? WHY would your straight daughter be interested in staring at a woman's boobs?
Its just gross. He's gross.
-K
OMG, this is me! Ive been asked by several close people if my dad violated me. Mainly from how I acted towards men in general I guess. I don't ever remember him doing that, my mom and others say that maybe I had blocked it out. But I doubt it, I have a very good long term memory. I just think his mental/emotional abuse caused me to distrust all men when I was younger. And my actions came across as that of a victim.
This is a good common sense Blog. Very helpful to one who is just finding the resources about this part. It will certainly help educate me.
OMG, my mother tried to keep track of my menstrual cycles, too. She is a big fat woman with enormous breasts and she liked to sit watching tv in nothing but a pair of granny panties! She said that since it was just "us girls" it was okay.
Is your bog still active? I just found you and am compelled to leave a comment. I have been Sherlock Holmes for most of my life trying to figure out what was wrong in my family of origin. Nearly ten years ago I went into therapy because I felt crazy. Slowly a picture emerged of my Dad - a narcissist. The issues of sexual abuse remain unclear in that overall picture but I really validate the first post back in 2008 that even if actual sexual abuse didn't take place, it was darn near the same. Weird behavior, borderline advances or talk, and my own shredded memory of events in my family. The three of us girls are spread out pretty far in ages so we never really formed close relationships and supported one another. I come to think my parents liked it that way. Mom died after 17 years of Alzheimers and Dad is now 91. He's still the same, old narcissists are even more ugly.
I am not sure if this blog is still active, but I want to get my thoughts out somewhere. I didn't have N parents, but I had an N grandmother. She claimed to be saint-like, and gained a giant following (near 100 people), including my parents. They would make me go over to her house. She was a filthy woman, never washing her hands, or cleaning herself. She would walk in on me when I was in the bathroom, and also would make me try on her clothes. She would stay in the room and comment on my naked body. Often, she would come up with excuses to make me take off my underclothes as well. Whenever I protested, she would just say she was my grandmother. She convinced my parents that I had eating disorders: sometimes that I was too thin, sometimes that I was too fat. I would have to go on many different kinds of diets for weight gain and weight loss. I threw up from the excessive amount of extra food every day for the better part of a year, but I would try to keep it secret, so she wouldn't yell. I also had to use the school bathroom exclusively, because she wouldn't let me cleanse myself afterwards. I remember staying up till 1:00 AM one night so that I could sneak out and use the bathroom in the woods in private.
She eventually convinced my parents I was mentally insane (which I wasn't), and kept me at her house for many years. She gave me a bed, but made sure it was always filthy so that I would get over my "obsession" with clean sheets and clean bodies. For two or three years, I slept on the floor.
Whenever I went to school, I would get there early so that I could rinse my hair in the sink, and go to the bathroom in private.
My parents were slaves to her, always doing what she said. I am a little older now, but still have to deal with it, though I have escaped the daily torture. I cannot stand to touch her, or most anybody.
It is nice to see people who can relate, though it is very very sad that there are so many sick people in the world. I sympathize with all of you, and hope you the best.
Do you guys have any recommendations for someone who cannot get out of the situation yet?
Oh my God. I can't believe I found someone that knows how I feel. I typed into google "feel violated by father" and you post is the only relevant thing I found. I know exactly what you are talking about and sympathize completely. I'm completely repulsed by my father. He has never sexually abused him but I can't help but feel repulsed and angry. I am an adult and we live together because he is old and can't speak english and has many health issues. But I feel completely trapped and just want to get away from him. I treats me like a five year old and touches me and kisses my without my permission. Not in a sexual nature but it is completely repulsive to me. I absolutely hate it. And yes, he also is a narcissist but I do hold some respect for him because he has lifted our family out of many hard situations, worked long hours, put me through school, and was supportive. But he is a narcissist with anger issues and treats my mother and I like property and thinks he can control us. He thinks we are a reflection of him onto society and takes everything personally. All he know is how to yell and scream and curse at us and verbally abuse us when we are not up to his level of perfect wife or perfect daughter. He somewhat disgusting too when it comes to his bodily functions.
I'm just so repulsed by him, I wish he would never touch me again or be near me. He think I'm a virginal little daddies girl at my age, and it totally compels me to have as much sex as I can just because of that. He doesn't know but at any time he has one of his stupid tirades I'm going to throw it in his face. I'm not his property, he need to stop talking to me like a child, he can't kiss or touch me whenever he wants, I'm not a virginal little daddies girl, and he can't control me.
Oh my God, I'm just so angry. I'm so happy to have found someone that feels something similar about their dad. Thank you so much for sharing that.
Okay so, to start with, I'm 16 years old. Today when I woke up I felt someone sitting next to me, the whole bed was shaking, I heard small moans and then fapping. Then I realized it was my dad jerking off. Why the fuck... What... Ugh... I think he's done it before but I wasn't sure. I moves a little and he got up and left. I can't understand him, really. He's a normal person and he hasn't done something similar ever again. He loves my mum and he has 2 other children (my 2 older brothers). I'm thinking about this a lot and I'm freaking out. This is weird and I'm sure as fuck that this is not okay. I haven't talked to him all day. I don't know if I'm being immature but I feel so fucking weird, sadm confused... Why did he do it?
Sorry, I just wanted to talk to someone about it. Thanks
@Ugh I don't know if you will see this message, but I hope you do. I am sorry for what you're going through! It is perfectly normal for you to be freaking out after witnessing such a thing. Your father masturbating beside you while you are sleeping is *NOT* ok. This is NOTHING similar to, say, you accidentally walking in on him fapping in the shower. This shows a deliberate choice for him to act that way and, even if it is a one time only thing or if it doesn't go anywhere beyond that, it is still does NOT make this ok! You need to talk about this ASAP to someone in a safe environment, preferably a professional who can respect your privacy and help you. Is there a counselor or psychologist at your high school you can go to? You could also talk to someone in your family, if you feel you have a strong enough bond with them, that they will help you. But it would be a lot easier to tell such a thing to a professional whose role is to help victims of traumatic events. And DON'T let anyone try to make you feel that this is nothing. If you were exposed to your dad masturbating after he has intentionally gotten into your bed, this is SERIOUS and it is aTRAUMATIC ABUSE, even if your father might not recognize it as such. In the mean time, if possible, lock your door before going to sleep. If you can't do that, try to prop something against it, or hang something like a chime to the handle, so that it would make noise if someone tried to open it. Or try to go to a relative or friend's house for a few days. I hope you find the help you need!
@Ugh Only now I realize I one year late on that comment. I hope you got help and that this has not happened again. If you see this, please leave a note to let me know how you are doing! Best wishes for you to be happy and move on!
Every day I dream about finally confronting my dad and sticking a knife through his chest. I hate that man so much. At the same time, I feel immense guilt as I had religion drummed into me from birth and feel like a terrible person for feeling this way. I'm stuck in this fucked up limbo!
My story is similar to many others here. It's been extremely theraputic to read everyone's posts. My dad is a textbook narcissist and possibly sociopath. He was angry, occasionally violent and incredibly egotistical while I was growing up. I was the eldest and was constantly blamed for not being 'a good role model' to my younger siblings. I never really knew what being 'good' was though, as my dad would find fault with any situation. He is the sort of person that could win the lottery and still be annoyed about something. Life was like walking on eggshells every day. The tiniest thing would set him off (and still does). If my mother is upstairs and he says something and she doesn't hear, then he is immediately angry with her. It isn't his fault for not getting up and walking into the same room to have a conversation like an adult, it is entirely her fault for not a) knowing that he would want to speak to her at that exact moment and b) daring to not hear him!
My dad has zero boundaries and would talk incessantly about everything and anything that was bothering him. EVERYTHING! No one else had problems except him. Even if they did, his mattered far more. I was used as his therapist and like a weird mother figure. I was terrified of him when I was young, as he would be happy one minute (when he was using me for attention, getting me to do a chore or solving a problem he couldn't be bothered to research himself) but then suddenly fly off the hook in a rage if he felt anyone had disagreed with him or threatened his ego. He was ALWAYS right. ALWAYS! I never once heard him apologise for anything. I frequently heard him massage his own ego in front of an audience by pointing out how well his kids were doing in school and waiting for the response of 'oh, well you must be good parents'. We were told we could pick any career, but we had to be the best at it. We could apparently choose any highschool, but we had to have hours of one to one tutoring from him directly every night so we could pass the exams to get into the top school. Our success was his success.
We would get pep talks about morals and family and how we were expected to behave towards him. When he wasn't at work he was like Jekyll and Hyde and would go above and beyond normal punishment if we dared to step out of line. He shoved soap into my (10 year old, if that) brother's mouth, would drag me about like a ragdoll and leave bruises up and down my arms, and once slammed his arm so hard against my chest/ribcage at 15 (because he thought he heard me swear at him) that I dumped my then boyfriend as I was embarrassed to let him see the bruises and then left the country as soon as I could. There were many many other things, but those three stick in my mind the most...
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I was happy for the first time in my life while living abroad, but ended up being beaten up and raped one night in the street and had to come back to the UK. I was also sharing a flat with a man who was basically a surrogate father but clearly trying to get into a teenager's pants. My dad was fine with this. He even met the guy and had dinner and drinks with him. A 15 year old living with a single 41 year old (who expected no rent or bill money) was in no way dodgy to him!
My dad then decided to start discussing his problems with me in even more detail, including his sex life with my mother (bear in mind I'd just been violently raped and he was well aware of the fact). I still feel physically sick remembering some of the things he shared with me! No child should hear that stuff anyway, but certainly not when they are already traumatised from being raped. I do not believe my dad ever sexually assaulted me himself, but the things he discussed with his teenage daughter were seriously screwed up! If I dared to even hint that he was doing something wrong, then I would get the whole 'no one loves me, I can't do anything right, what about MY problems' routine until I was guilt tripped into dropping it. Nothing was ever his fault and he never felt that he should say sorry or change one iota. Sulking was his preferred response to anyone daring to complain.
And the lying! My god! I thought he was a brililantly successful businessman when I was little. My mother also used the excuse 'oh , he works so hard, he's just stressed' to explain his anger and bullying. He had a basic 9 to 5 middle manager job in the same place for the best part of 30 years. Apparently he hated the place (certainly complained about it enough), but never thought to move to another company. Also hated the hour commute to the office in the morning, but again never thought to apply elsewhere. His ego was so big he would lecture us on various finance and business issues as if he was Warren Buffet well into our 20s. This was after I had spent close to a decade working in finance and studying economics, accounting and business at degree level and worked in 50+ hour jobs regularly without bitching about it. If you want to improve your life then you have to go above and beyond the average. My dad has not and will not accept this. He wants a millionaire's lifestyle without the extra work. He still hasn't paid off his mortgage at 60 because he decided he should have an extra property abroad to brag about (which he went into more debt for and then left empty for years), he deserves multiple holidays for 2-3 weeks a time, wine, nice food, etc. He comaplins to me that it's so unfair that he still has a mortgage and can't retire and it's my mum's fault, but then he refuses to make any cutbacks to his lifestyle until he's paid it off. He now works roughly part time, but it's still too much effort for him! He watches me working 60+ hour weeks, studying, not spending any money on anything for myself because I want to improve my situation, handing over 3/4 of my salary to him... but his situation is far far worse!
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He just makes things up to suit himself. Even when I call him out on this and ask him to show me any data or research or ANYTHING that he has looked at to reach his decision, he just gets angry and defensive and talks over me or in a louder tone. If he makes mistakes, he will blatantly lie ABOUT that person IN FRONT OF that person as if they won't notice! He has a phone and my mother as a PA, but expects me to know what he is doing and thinking at every moment of the day and will tell people 'she messed up, she forgot to remind me to do xyz so now there is a big problem'. I have my own life, my own (far more intense and longer hours) career, and have never expected him to remember things for me! He barely knows who I am, and he's known me for 32 years. He simply doesn't care enough to actually get to know his own daughter. He also blames me being poor and not being able to afford a car on the fact that I 'don't want to give him lifts to places'. I would LOVE a car and have stated this many many times! I simply do not have the money yet and refuse to take out more loans just to please other people. I will save up and do things the sensible way! He will casually lie throughout the day. What happens in his head is fact. Reality does not matter. If he makes a mistake, well that's just impossible, so something else MUST have happened that was someone else's fault! He makes me feel like an idiot, as he'll say one thing to me then if I quote him later on he will act as though I'm lying and other people question me. I've taken to writing down exactly what he says word for word, so that I can prove to myself I'm not going crazy!
I should also add that I'm poor because he pretty much pushed me to get the best education I could, then at the last moment told me he wasn't giving me a single penny towards it. So I'd signed all the contracts and accepted the offer and had to get into a lot of debt to cover it. I wouldn't have minded if he'd given me some warning so I could save up and pick a cheaper university/place to live instead of the top one offered. But no, I was just supposed to know what he was thinking without him actually telling me! I then graduated into the recession and racked up more debt while trying to get a job, as my dad insisted I pay him rent for one of his spare three bedrooms (four, if you count the foreign property he owns but just left empty for years). It took until 31 to fix the financial mess and he still acts confused when I say I can't afford to do things (holidays, cars, a home) because I don't want to get back into debt. I'm not so much mad that he didn't want to support the education he pressured me into. I'm mad that he couldn't be bothered to warn me that I'd need to find a ton of money from nowhere at 17! He went from 2-3 hour tutoring sessions and going on and on about education being THE most important thing to showing zero interest in what I was doing. I'm mad that his arrogance cost me a decade of my life and wrecked my finances (I'm pretty good with money, so would have planned for university if I'd been given a chance).
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My mother is not a narcissist, but definitely enables his behaviour. Her own parents were also pretty messed up and I believe she sees herself in a mother role to my dad. Although she is also weirdly childlike around him and incredibly reliant on my dad. He will complain to me that she is not his equal, but then when she does try to assert herself he shuts her down immediately. She will not stand up to him, even when he insults, swears or belittles her (multiple times per hour). He will then either guilt trip her into saying sorry (!) or just completely switch into 'nice mode' and pretend nothing happened. I believe she lacked affection from her own parents, so craves anything my dad gives her. Enough that she will willingly put up with abuse towards her and her kids when he is in one of his moods (most of the time). If my dad and I ever fall out, she will do her best to defend his actions and make excuses, telling me how much he does really love me and that he acts very differently when it's just the two of them. I don't really care what he's like when I'm not there. He's a dick to me when I'm in the room and that's what bothers me!
In the last few months I have felt so worn down and exhausted by him (and everything else) that I've just started to snap at him when he acts like a prick. Or I just ignore him, so he doesn't get the attention he craves. He has a new illness or ailment every week, but since I've stopped responding to his whinging he has quit complaining to me so much. He complains to everyone else in the family that I'm now 'cold and detached' towards him (because they tell me), but I've run out of energy now so part of me has stopped caring. If it wasn't for my mother and a few other people in the family who I am close to, I would move away tomorrow and cut all contact. He repulses me. He has started to say 'I love you' all the time and try to hug me, but after 30+ years of the above behaviour it just makes my skin crawl.
I know he doesn't mean 99% of what he says, so I don't believe him when he is acting 'nice'. He is like a slimey salesman trying to manipulate other people's behaviour for his benefit. He simply doesn't view humans as sentient beings with their own lives. They are simply puppets to him and should recognise his god-like abilities and superior knowledge! His needs must ALWAYS come first! Everyone should automatically KNOW what he is thinking at every moment of the day! He has on at least one occasion told me outright that he wishes he hadn't had children. We are a huge inconvenience to him. He would be a successful property tycoon if he just hadn't had kids. If someone had done something or not done something... he would have been successful! He can't admit his failure is due to his ego getting in the way of him ever learning from anyone and developing. If you always believe you are always correct and never make a mistake, then you never learn from your mistakes.
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