Of all my narcissistic father's behaviors, it's his total inability to listen that I have found the most troubling.
Joanna Ashmun described it so well:
I have observed very closely some narcissists I've loved, and their inability to pay attention when someone else is talking is so striking that it has often seemed to me that they have neurological problems that affect their cognitive functioning.
When a person says something to my father, if you can manage to finish your sentence without being interrupted, it's almost as if they hadn't spoken at all.
There is no acknowledgment of what was just said. There is no appropriate reaction. If you tell him you have the flu, he will tell you that everybody around him is sick. If you tell him his granddaughter broke her arm, he will not ask if she's in any pain or if she's wearing a cast, but he will tell you how terribly upset he is because you allowed her to fall off the swings. When I told him I had got into the dream college of my choice, he didn't register the news. Then he wanted to know why I was packing to leave.
I remember, as a child, trying to tell n-dad about something important that happened at school. I had been first to finish one of those SRA reading boxes filled with short stories. Since I had such trouble in math, I was delighted to excel in at at least one subject. I remember him saying, "Oh good for you," in a distracted sort of way before he began chattering away about something else.
I learned right then and there that what I said was simply not important. That I was not important. That I must be at fault, somehow. That I must be inarticulate and boring. I developed a very poor, tentative way of expressing myself, as if I had no right to speak at all.
In a conversation, I'm usually thrilled with a 20 percent share.
A lack of reaction when one speaks also makes you feel invisible. It's the most profoundly disorienting experience, to be in a "conversation" yet not speak or be heard.
And even though you may come in for a scolding or mocking, the n-parent who can't listen will also not offer pearls of wisdom, reassurance or practical advice.
Later, when I began going to medical visits with my parents, the nurse or doctor would usually take me aside and ask if my father had always been like that. "He doesn't seem to be registering anything I say," one doctor observed in frustration. "Does he have ADD?" another nurse asked.
When my Dad was in his early seventies, I thought he'd benefit from the expertise of a geriatric specialist, so found him a new doctor. He immediately noted n-dad's incessant chatter and that he couldn't seem to engage in a normal conversation. "Is this behavior new?" he asked. I assured him that's the way my father had always behaved. He wondered aloud if my father might be slightly autistic. Eventually, he'd use n-dad's inability to listen as a criteria for dementia.
So that's another way to look at interacting with a narcissist who can't listen. It's as challenging as dealing with a poor soul struck with dementia.
52 comments:
Ok, I had completely forgotten about the SRA boxes until you reminded me. And even though I'm not your parent, and it's been a long time (at least for me) I wanted to say congrats for finishing a box *hugs*
My mom doesn't hear people. I always thought it was odd that she could hold an hour conversation with my grandmother on the phone and watch television or play on her computer at the same time. You could hear the vague "oh yah?s" from the other room. And if she wanted to end a conversation, her interest level never seemed to change, but her voice would get even louder.
It's one of the things I've tried very hard to do is actually hear my 13yo when she talks to me. I'll admit it - I'm not that interested in all the things her friends are doing and said to her during the day. But I'm interested in her, and I know what its like to be ignored. So I try to make it a point to look at her when we talk and sometimes, just say nothing at all because all she really wants is to be heard.
Pavlov,
Hah! Someone else who remembers those funny little SRA kits! I LURVED them.
I'm so glad you mentioned one of the positives that can come from having a parent who does not listen. The conscious decision to stop the cycle and the concerted effort to listen to our own children...carefully. If your daughter is 13 and still talking...that's absolutely FANTASTIC! Saying nothing is good. Just being there to listen without giving advice is what they really want. This is kind of pathetic, but I actually checked out some books on active listening and talking to teenagers and I've learned to the technique of repeating some of the key points of what they've just said. I'm always surprised and delighted by how effective it is. For example, if my 17 year old comes home and vents about some guy who's crushing on her, instead of reminding her to be nice to him, I say..."I can see where'd you'd find him highly annoying." And then she goes on to tell me he's practically stalking her..something I wouldn't have found out otherwise...and then we discussed strategies to deal with him. The stakes just get higher as the kids get older, so I'm sure what you're doing now will continue to pay off in the future...because it's all about getting them to trust you.
And absolutely yes. Your daughter just wants to be heard and it's lovely you're doing that for her!
I can completely relate. My father acts the exact same way. It drives me insane when I try to tell him something important and it's as if I'm just talking to a wall. Sometimes I wonder why I even try.
I recently came across these rules (they're so on the mark) on how to deal with a narcissist and thought I'd share them:
Rule #1: Never try and reason with a narcissist because they are unreasonable.
Rule #2: You are wrong, the narcissist is right. Get over it.
Rule #3: Narcissists don't get 'hurt feelings' they get 'devastated', and it's all your fault.
Rule #4: You are an extension of the narcissist's person; you are an OBJECT.
Rule #5: You are still wrong.
Anonymous:
Heavy sigh! I suspect you try because it's so hard not to give it just one last try. And another. Then another. If you didn't, it would mean you've totally thrown it in...and that's a little scary. Just on the off chance there's a glimmer of hope. I do the same thing.
Thanks for the list!
I have the hardest time accepting the horrible truth of #4. I am an object. It's so ugly. But it would explain why my father, decades b/f dementia, couldn't name my favorite color, vacation spot or food.
Just wanted to say a huge THANK YOU for your blog. I don't know if you realize how much you are helping us grownups who grappled (or are still grappling) with n parents. I just recently was able to finally put a label on my mothers horrific and abusive behavior, and since I have, everything has fallen into place. I never realized other people had the same experience. I always just assumed it was my fault that my mom was so mean and awful. Now that I realize I am not to blame, it's like a huge relief. To know others are dealing with the fallout too, well, it's just a huge relief to know I'm not alone.
Thank you, Anonymous: While it's been therapeutic to blog, the biggest payoff is hearing from people like yourself...who share their experiences and thoughts on how to deal with n-parents.
You wrote: "I just recently was able to finally put a label on my mothers horrific and abusive behavior."
It took me more than four decades to do this...and it was done by a psycholgist who visited n-dad at his assisted living facility. For years, I used to wonder if n-dad was slightly retarded. I'm not joking. He just seemed so off. While he can be awful, I've learned that many of you are dealing with parents who seem much, much meaner...more toxic and malignant. I continue to be shocked and saddened by many of the stories I read.
Anonymous 6:53, I love that Rule #4. Narcissism is all about high drama to the highest and they are utterly devastated DEVESTATED that people are picking/conspiring against them and that they, the narcissism, are harmless people with a good heart. Now excuse me while I go and vomit into the irony-is-lost-on-them bucket.
It’s funny (not really) how befuddled people bring up the word “autism” when they encounter N-parents. Both of my parents are Ns and one of my sisters is autistic. I believe autism is genetic triggered by something in the environment. The more I learn about narcissism and the more I hear lay people use “autistic” in the same sentence with narcissism, the more I’m convinced that my sister’s condition was inevitable and I and my other sister escaped both nurtured-narcissism and natured-narcissism by the skin of our teeth.
And yeah, the total inability and disinterest in other people’s conversation. Several years ago my aunts witnessed my mom’s hour long one-sided telephone conversations with us which goes like this:
Me: “Hi Mom.”
Mom: “Me-me-me-me-what I did-what-I-discovered-me-me-me-all-about-me.” One hour later. “Okay, bye.” And clunk goes the receiver.
I think my aunts tried to intervene because one weekend the “conversation” went like this:
Me: “Hi Mom.”
Mom: (A pause) “What did you do last night?”
Me: “Uh…… I…um…. went…. to see a movie .....with Colleen.” I’m nearly shocked speechless.
Now usually one would ask what movie I saw, but apparently the followup question is not part of the How-to-Show-Interest-in-Your-Children-Lives list.
Mom: “Did you have a good sleep last night?”
Me: “Actually I’ve been waking up couple times a night. Do you think it’s stess?”
Mom: "What did you have for breakfast?"
Me: "Fried eggs on rice"
By now Mom's utter bored tone tells me she is forced to ask these questions.
Mom: “What are your plans today?”
Me: “Go rollerblading downtown. There’s an eight mile loop around the art museum.”
Mom: “How is your job?”
Me: “Dina got fired.”
Mom:"How is your cat's health?"
Me: "He's fine. He a very affectionate cat.
I’m visualizing my aunt standing over Mom’s shoulder making sure she completes the list.
Mom: "Have you been to a doctor lately?"
Me: "Yes, and he still can't figure out what is causing my chronic internal bleeding. He ruled out ulcer."
Mom: “What are your plans tonight?”
Me: “There is a dinner party for the city’s young professionals. I’m thinking of changing jobs.”
Mom: “Okay, bye.” And clunk goes the receiver
At the time I thought mom would in time "grow out" of her self-chattering habit, rationalizing it was her way to dealing with stress. And hence I am very glad for the existence of the internet and Nina's blog
Nina, yes, the stories can be really unbelievable. My friends are always saying I should write a book because of the stories I tell them about my mom. Some are funny, like when my mom and dad paid for me to come to the Caribbean with them for Thanksgiving, but forced me to carry a frozen turkey on the flight because my mom didn't want to pay the high prices for turkey there. And they didn't get me my own room, they made me sleep in a cot at the foot of their bed (I was in my 20's, gross).
Others are more disturbing, like my mom refusing to bring a camera to my college graduation because she said I was "acting selfish, as if it was all about me" (well, duh). So I had to run out on the morning of my graduation to buy a disposable camera so I could have some memories of the event to keep. Or when home for the holidays my first year of college, my mom and dad kept me up all night accusing me of being a hoar and having sex at college. I kept telling them it wasn't true, and that I needed to get to bed because I had a huge internship opportunity the next morning, but they refused to believe me. The more I cried and the more upset I became, the more my mother said "if you weren't guilty, you wouldn't be so upset right now". They kept me up well after 1:00 a.m. and the next morning my eyes were literally swollen shut from crying so hard. I was so embarrassed when I showed up to my internship with the local news reporter at the NBC station the next morning. Those three stories are just the tip of the iceberg.
I always wished I could have just told my mom (and Dad, guilty by association because he was an enabler)to F-off, but they always were blackmailing me with something. I was living under their roof, then they were paying for me to go to school, it was always something. By the time I was on my own, they had such a hold over me I was like a kidnapped child who becomes so used to the abuse that when their captor actually starts leaving the door unlocked, it never occurs to the kidnapped child that they can just get up and walk out.
My sister was telling her friend all about our crazy childhood and her friend told her it sounded like our mom had NPD. So my sister looked it up, emailed me the description, and it was like all the weight in the world just lifted from my shoulders. Since then I've been getting regular therapy and finding my true self again (or for the first time, more likely).
oh enilina... i'm sorry, but reading those phone scripts, as horrible as they are, it's funny (in a completely unfunny way)... the inability to FOLLOW UP on such things as the CHRONIC INTERNAL BLEEDING... ugghh... it's just amazing. my father will ask questions "so are you still singing w/the band" (um... we got married, moved an hour away from everyone in the band, got knocked up & had a baby... uh NOPE not singing w/the band currently and he KNOWS THIS) but... the reason for asking the question that really wasn't a question, but an opening "you know i found a tape w/me singing on it the other day... i made in back... blah blah blah blah me me me so good i should do something w/it blah blah blah. and i laughed, because for a moment i thought... hmmmmm.... he's interested in my singing. HA HA HA... yeah not so much.
i sang in a band for wow... about 10 years almost... he came to see us once (and WHAT an ordeal that was i didnt want him to come but he'd heard about it and there was no stopping him, i think he even brought his harmonica so he could come up and play... haha didnt happen).
all he said "i think you were good, but they were too loud (he's deaf in one ear btw) and why do you sound so angry" HA HA HA ok, yeah ummm it's a rock band... and YEAH... that's a good question 'why am i so angry'
anonymous... actually to all of the anonymous'... it really IS such a RELIEF to have an explanation for their behavior, it makes you feel a lot less crazy, a lot less guilty, but not enough usually to free you.... and it IS a lot like stockholm syndrome anon june 8th... what a good comparison! (i think it's stockholm syndrome you were referring to).
loved the rules btw!
Anonymous 6:19 PM, your parents made you sleep in a cot at the foot of their bed and you were in your 20's! What were you, their servant?! Oh, wait.... Man, talk about cluelessness and disconnected with common courtesy.
Your parents sound like a higher scale version of my own. My dad and mom kept claiming that my sister got a summer apartment on campus because she wanted unlimited time with her boyfriend. Except she didn't have a boyfriend and she wanted a quiet place to live and study instead of living at home of the constant scream fests and demands from our dad that we act like servants to him. Gee, it couldn't be because of our parents that sis moved out, oh nooooooo, it was her defective character. Even my dog leaves the room once my dad enters it.
roxtarchic, :-D Yeah, I too thought the unique phone "conversation" was funny, which is why I remember this one and not the hundreds of all-about-Mom phone conversation. I told my sister and we had a good laugh over it. One time my sister asked mom why she inquired about our lives and mom snapped back with "your life is perfect, my life is horrible!"
Rule #3: Narcissists don't get 'hurt feelings' they get 'devastated', and it's all your fault.
And your dad asking a totally inane "question" as an opening about his glory days as a could-have-been-a-mega-rock-star. Pathetic that the only way our n-parent try to fool us that they care is by asking questions that immediatley gives themselves away because they really really really only want to talk about themselves.
My mom pride herself for being a statistician, so I started counting how often she bitched about her son-in-law. By the end of the month I reported to her that she "talked" about SIL at least 95 times in 30 days. After all that talk, what is she going to do about it? She was stunned over my insensitivity that she nearly cried. So now she limits her bitchfest about SIL to once or twice a week.
That should have been:
One time my sister asked mom why she never inquired about our lives
Watching my in-laws actually take an interest and listen to my spouse was one of those completely foreign things that confirmed that my parents weren't normal. It was....amazing. Shocking. Weird.
One vacation my spouse and I rode our motorcycle from one end of the Blue Ridge Parkway to the other, camping along the way. After our return we told my parents about it -- or, at least, we tried. It was quite an adventure. Three years later after they'd moved to North Carolina, one evening they brought up this wonderful place they'd found to take a drive. Yup, the Blue Ridge Parkway. When we agreed that it *was* beautiful and we'd spent one vacation driving from one end to the other, their response was a bored "oh, really?". Of course, they continued to tell us about all the Parkway as if we'd never been there.
Enilina, counting your mother's complaints is fabulous! I wish I would have thought of that.
Cinder Ella,
Your parents sound so much like mine! They travel a lot, and I was always expected to ooh and ahhh over their travel pictures and listen to endless stories about the people they met, but they could have cared less about anything I had to share from my travels. If I didn't show the proper amount of interest and wonder, I got the could shoulder silent treatment.
Enilina, yes, I was their servant! At least my mom's. She used to make me filed her toenails and paint them when I was a child (ewww). Also, I had to blowdry and curl her hair anytime she asked me to. When I asked her to help me with my nails or hair, she got all irritated and refused, of course.
To all of you, thanks for sharing your stories so that I can feel less alone.
Cinder Ella,
I almost forgot, I know what you mean about watching your in-laws take a genuine interest in their children and ask questions in a caring manner. It really made me realize how distorted my own view of reality was.
I was 24 years old my girlfriend also 24 died of bone cancer. I was really upset I came in the door and told my Dad and he literally lowered the newspaper as I spoke and then raised it again and said nothing. It wasn't about him. He had no reaction to my pain at all. I was stunned. This sort of thing happened my whole life and if I tried to discuss it I was beraded. I have just begun to look at this now at 38. After 4 and a half years of my own battle with alcoholism.
iradessa, i am so sorry. i am in my 30's as well and just recently realized what the situation was with my mom (and my dad, by default, as he was a classic enabler). for all those years i thought it was my fault that i couldn't make the relationship work. please be good to yourself and realize that you are not damaged goods, your father is.
Nina, I came across your blog whilst trying gain some better understanding of my n-father. It's been a great relief to see experiences and feelings similar to my own articulated so clearly on-screen.
Having just come off the phone with my father, I needed to find out more about why exactly he is so difficult. 'Difficult' in his case covers so many things: never really listening to what anyone else is saying, boasting to all and sundry about his (invented, embellished) achievements, saying that I'm the only person he has in the world. At the core of it is a profound self-centredness,always implicit , and - when he's feeling neglected - charmingly obvious in statements such as 'what about Daddy?' and 'If you cared about Daddy you'd do X, Y, Z'. (The sort of language which would be inappropriate to use with teenagers, and which I consider plain yucky in my twenties).
I hope you won't mind if I share my experience of a n-father in a bit more detail (this is the first time I've actually written it down and is already feeling quite cathartic).
Basically, I was brought up as 'Daddy's little girl' to use that sickening term. My father - by normal standards relatively successful but invariably focusing on the negatives in his life - invested all of his failed dreams in me. I was to succeed, not to make the same mistakes as him. Hence a rigid focus on academia - up until a few years ago I spent all my time sitting and passing exams, trying to please him. Any interests in sports or drama were quickly stamped out, as I might become 'distracted from my work'.
So I spent the best part of my childhood, like my mother, trying to please my father. We would sit at dinner and listen to him 'pontificate' on everything from current affairs to philosophy. In retrospect, his pomposity is laughable and dull, but at the time I was made to feel it was my duty to listen.
I have only realised recently that his talk of my 'duty' and 'obligation' was really a way of exerting control. He still frames it in the language of 'wanting what's best for me'.
The turning point came when I moved to university. I discovered friendships which weren't hampered by being too embarrassed to invite people home, the joys of playing music out loud, the delight of being able to plan my days without factoring his need for attention. During my first year at uni, however, I still kept in touch with him regularly, listening to the plaintive phonecalls, along the lines of 'I'm an old man now (he's only 67), soon you'll be burying me...'
Truth was, although I valued my new found freedom I never questioned the fact that it was to be something short-lived, that I would eventually have to come back home and care for him as he got older. A range of psychosomatic illnesses (vertigo, globus, gum aches, ringing in the ears, sinusitis - you name it) underlined this 'look after me, I'm your father' mantra. (When I think of the amount of doctor's time he's wasted over the years it makes me fume. Nothing serious ever diagnosed except 'stress'!)
I only found the strength to detach from him when I met my now-husband, then a postgraduate at the same uni. I fell deeply in love, and the prospect of an alternative life worth fighting for gave me the strength to deal with my father. When he found out about my boyfriend, he hit the roof. I had betrayed him, abandoned him, his dream was over. I received countless letters begging me to come back, that I was effectively killing him, that I would have his death on my conscience for the rest of his life, that only I could prevent him from doing something stupid. All this for having a normal adult relationship with a man I loved and who loved me back.
A number of years have passed since then. My father's narcissism has led him to develop a pathological hatred for my husband, who he perceives has having taken his daughter away from him. He still calls me to beg me to leave my husband, claiming that he bad for me, that I am jeopoardizing my career and so forth. He has threatened to cut me out of his will, and fluctuates between guilt-inducing anger: 'it's obvious where *your* priorities lie' and blatant neediness: 'don't do this *me*, I'm so hurt, yada, yada...'
The feelings of obligation conditioned in my from childhood (plus a good dollop of Irish Catholic guilt) have prevented me from cutting him off entirely. But I can honestly say that I have never been able to truly enjoy my relationship with my husband because of his constant carping. Crucially, he doesn't understand how love can be divided but not reduced: coming out with things like: 'you can either choose *that man* (my husband) or your father'.
I have analysed the whole thing inside out, and am convinced that he is deeply insecure: his father abandoned the family when he was very young. However, what I'm sure has made the situation so worse is that he was allowed to get away with things for so bloody long: being doted on by his mother, and with my own mother a definite people-pleaser too.
What narcissists really need, I think, is for someone to stand up to them. Some, like my father I suspect, are willing to play the very hard game, i.e. actually cause themselves to have a real illness, or self-harm, in order to get the attention they crave. Do narcissists ever back down when they see how self-centred they are? I have hardly heard of any such instances.
Apologies for the length of this post - it has been so great to get this off my chest. As for what next, I'm not sure. Either I cut off all contact completely (and the way he constantly insults my husband have made me do so more than once), or try to find some medium. But I suspect he's beyond any sort of 'cure', and dread the time when, an only child like you Nina, I will have to take care of him.
As my mother even admits, I have never come across a more wearing person. I'm brought to mind of Gullivers Travels - when Gulliver is pinned down by ropes by all the little people. Whenever I pick up the phone, or open one of his bulky letters, I feel like that: dragged down.
Enilina,
I'm glad you shared the dialogue with your mother. I'm struck by the similarities...even though there's a difference in genders...the me-me-me-ness of it all. I also think it's helpful to others to see what talking with a narcissist actually sounds like should there be any doubts they are dealing with an n. parent. How sad to think that your aunts had to coach your mom...and that she just couldn'tpull it off.
Dear Anonymous/Searching for True Self: Wow! Your comment blew me away. For some n-parents, there must be something about their kids going to college that is especially threatening to them. Maybe the quest for outside knowledge...for independence...for what it symbolizes. I got that, too...being called "selfish" in relation to college. Maybe the fear that we won't be under their thumb forever. Dunno. Many kids go off to college with a lot of emotional support and well wishes. We had none of that. We had to fight AGAINST our parents for normal rites of passage...and they poisoned the experience. I'm saying this because it's so isolating and incredibly difficult to stagger toward adulthood in this manner...shackled to our parents who are hanging onto our legs...trying to drag us back into their dysfunction.
From the stories you told, it struck me that your mother was constantly trying to infantalize you...by making you sleep at the foot of their bed like a child...and do her unreasonable bidding...and later went to the other extreme and called you a whore when you were trying to be responsible and get a good night's sleep for the beginning of your internship! I mean, most parents would applaud that effort...and not try to sabotage it.
I'm so glad you are in therapy and have begun the journey to your true self. Just keep asking yourself...what do I feel about ______?....what do I want to do? About EVERYTHING. It's like we have to learn about ourselves as if we're strangers...because we were separated from ourselves by our own parents!
ROXTARCHIC: Hah! I can't believe you actually mentioned Stockholm Syndrome. I'm soooo glad you did. This has long fascinated me. You know that funny picture I have with my parents in a fake jail? It's symbolic on so many levels...but it really captured the way I felt back then...like I was imprisoned. Tomorrowish, will post about that...I'm wondering how many of us now feel like we had some form of SS???
CINDER ELLA: It is so diminishing to have one's (exciting!) experience ignored...then crazy making to be expected to listen to your parents take the same trip...as if you'd never been there. I have an older friend who has daughters in their early 30's...and I used to watch how they interacted...with my friend hanging on to their every word...and asking relevant questions...and I was so amazed b/c I'd never seen anything like it. Yet, it was so normal.
IRADESSA: That's a truly terrifying experience. To stand there, in front of parent, in obvious pain...and get nothing. No reaction. No comfort. It's like it didn't compute for your father...because he probably has no empathy. Right?
I hope that as you explore how your father's narcissism has impacted your life...your feelings...your self-esteem...that you will allow any suppressed feelings of lonliness, frustration and rage to surface...to deal with them head on. I applaud your quest for sobriety...VERY glad to hear from you.
Take the best of care.
Janesdesk
Whoa, that "Any interests in sports or drama were quickly stamped out, as I might become 'distracted from my work'. gave me a flashback into the not-so-distance past. While n-mom was living with me she constantly harped how the once-a-week hour long bible study was "distracting" me from advancing my career, going to the movies with friends was "distracting" me from advancing my career, playing the violin for a local band was "distracting" me from advancing my career, overseeing my autistic sister's care was "distracting" me from....Of course we all know here that all those activities were in fact taking me away from HER TIME.
'I'm an old man now (he's only 67), soon you'll be burying me...'
Every time my mom tries to pull the "I could die soon!", I respond with, "I could die before you, it has happen before....parents outliving their children."
I received countless letters begging me to come back, that I was effectively killing him, that I would have his death on my conscience for the rest of his life, that only I could prevent him from doing something stupid.
Typical narcissist's act, putting all their responsibility onto you. Every time I see this antic on some melodramatic TV show or movie, I'm all "go ahead and off yourself you whiney bas-turd, you're not going to do it anyway you wuss." If it's not that then it's putting all their defects and flaws onto you. Either way it is their way of absolving any idota of personal responsibility and dumping it all on you. The more I learn about narcissism the more I understand why the "No Contact" with Ns is the #1 advice. You're on the right path to saving yourself and your marriage.
Enilina,
I ended up with the no contact route due to a letter I wrote to nmom, I could never have the courage to confront her in person. Anyway, I tried explaining that the way she was treating my son (her only grandchild)was hurting his feelings, big mistake on my part. Bottom line is November will be 4 years of no contact, she cut me out and I never reached out to her. While I realize that this was the best option I still question myself and I have no closeure. I think the no closeure is the hardest part.
JANESDESK:
I got the heebie jeebies reading about your father. If there was a scale for narcissism, your father would probably graph off the charts. Oh, and never feel the need to apologize for a longish comment because I'm very interested in the details. That's where the truth is!
I'd be interested to hear what others think, but it almost seems like - I don't even know how to frame this correctly - there's a strong undercurrent of sexual jealousy directed at your husband. And if this is the case, that your father treats you with a certain possessiveness that is inappropriate for a father. Have you ever got that feeling? To be honest, it almost sounds like you're dealing with narcissism...PLUS. Plus a lot of stuff that seems more than the average crap we all have to put up with.
It's entirely possible I'm "projecting" because, the times my father has crossed the line - in describing his sexual exploits and private parts/problems - I have been utterly and completely repulsed and horrified.
The way our father's choose to express themselves is really unfortunate...because it seems to focus on a) possession and b) duty/obligation/guilt...there being no other motivators such a true affection to rely upon.
What also struck me is how unsettling it is to deal with people like your father...who can quickly go from tyrant to victim and back again. But it's all tyrannical...even when they're playing the victim card.
You wrote: "But I can honestly say that I have never been able to truly enjoy my relationship with my husband because of his constant carping. Crucially, he doesn't understand how love can be divided but not reduced: coming out with things like: 'you can either choose *that man* (my husband) or your father'"
You didn't ask for advice, you poor thing...but what your father is doing is unfair and wrong, wrong, wrong.
I strongly encourage you to tell you father - firmly - that you will cut him off if he continues to talk about your husband that way. This may sound terrifying, but learn to hang up on him if he begins to carry on. Don't open his letters if they upset you. Toss them in the trash.
You may also want to try to take vacations from your father for set periods of time...in which you do not communicate with him and try to focus on enjoying your husband...without the shackles of guilt.
That said, it's easier said than done...and don't feel like you even have to respond to this unsolicited advice...or explain yourself in anyway. I just want you to know that you would be TOTALLY, ABSOLUTELY 100 percent justified in a) setting boundaries; b) deciding to cut your father off if that's what you ultimately decide or c) whatever you think you need to do to protect yourself and your marriage!
I wanted to comment on Nina's comments about Janesdesk's father (got that?). It does sound as if there might be a PLUS there, I agree. And it's just not fair or appropriate for a father to put that responsibility on his daughter. You poor thing, having to have that on your shoulders for so many years.
I can relate to not ever really being able to *enjoy* the relationship with your husband. I think a lot of narcissistic parents put their sexual weirdness on their kids. I grew up being told never to have sex, that it's bad, that I was bad for kissing a boy, etc. etc. Now, I am trying to undo years and years of conditioning. I also can hear my father (who I never thought was the narcissist, it was my mother, but not I'm starting to rethink his possible narcissism) saying things like "Annette Funicello was my first wet dream" as well as "So, you're sleeping with my daughter, huh?" when we told him we were expecting our first child. There were always inappropriate sexual comments coming out of his mouth. It's just disgusting to even think about. It might be why I'm so repulsed by the thought of him. For a long time I wondered if I wasn't sexually abused. Perhaps he never laid a finger on my that way, but there was inappropriate behavior for sure.
It's an interesting topic that I'd love to pursue further -- how many of us survivors of NP's had to deal with weird sexual stuff as well. And how are we all dealing with it? How has it affected our relationships with our partners?
Janesdesk, hang in there girl. If you need to cut off contact with your father to save your marriage, just know there are people here that will support you through it. I went NC with my parents after Thanksgiving when my mom told me I was a failure and a disappointment (amongst other things, it's such a joke because I've lived my life solely to please her). It has been stressful because every day I go through my mail holding my breath and anticipating that letter full of vitriol that will bring me to my knees, but on the other hand it has been so freeing to not have the constant abuse.
ANONYMOUS 7:37: I think your question was a really good one to address...the one about sexual weirdness. Will post soon about it and solicit stories/comments.
Mmmm. I've wondered whether I was sexually abused, too...first b/c of my revulsion for my father...I can't stand for him to touch me in any way. And recently, an old friend of my mothers told me that when I was around 12...my mother asked if I could go to her house b/c my mother didn't want me spending any time alone w/my father. Which was weird. I have no recollection of any abuse...
Nina, I, too, have such a revulsion for my father. To the point where even hearing him talk makes me want to puke. Then he gets all mushy and wants to kiss me on the lips (my mom always made me kiss her on the lips too, which in and of itself isn't bad, but when it's FORCED it's different). The thought of him makes my skin crawl. My sister has the same reaction, though maybe not as strong, and she vehemently denies the thought of sexual abuse. But there was *something* there. I remember taking a long car trip when I was about 12. My mom and sister were in the front and my dad and I were in the back. I was laying down trying to sleep and he was rubbing my back and I just very clearly remember feeling as if something wasn't right. So, I don't know if he ever actually did anything, but I do know that I felt uncomfortable with his actions from a young age.
I can't wait for your post and to hear what others have to say on this topic.
I, too, have wondered if there was some sexual abuse in my past. That revulsion is there, the inappropriate sexual comments, but now I do remember a point in time when my cousin accused my father of inappropriately touching her. The whole thing was swept under the rug by family, I think, but I was pretty young when this came up. Also, when my mother and father divorced less than a decade ago, my mother accused my father of having sexually abused us. She was having a nervous breakdown at the time, mind you, but that especially stuck in my mind and has troubled me, too, that on some level she felt he was perfectly capable of that.
Iradessa, I'm no sorry and angry to read about your dad's non reaction to your tragedy. Just the N's way to further invalidate you and your feelings. They're the ones who are invalid.
The subject of the feeling of digust and revulsion...I do not believe I was sexually abused, however my dad was physically inappropriate many times: he would excessively tickle me when I’m screaming for him to stop (tickling IS torture) and when he’s not tickling he’s biting me. I knew the biting part wasn’t normal and it was confirmed when I told a friend and she gave me the deer-in-the-headlight-look. He kept making me sit on his lap even when I was way past that age and I had to lecture him that I’m “too old” for that stuff. Later on when I babysit I saw how toddlers and little kids like to bite eachother until taught not do. Since narcissists are eternal 6 years old, I figure dad’s biting his kids is some weird man-child thing.
After my oldest sister left the house I knew I was next in line to be mom’s counselor and companion. She boasted of how my dad had pursued her or how much her family relied on her when the family business went bankrupt. After the divorce she tried to tell me about all the oral sex she had given to my dad. The first time I was too shocked to say anything. The second time I was dramatically ignoring her hoping she would get the message. The third time I shouted, “I don’t want to hear it!” Mom had a look on her face that combined I’m-so-insulted and oh-you’re-here, as if she suddenly realized I was in the same room with her.
My parents’ excessive childish antics and serious lack of adult responsibility led to my disgust and revulsion of them. I can only imagine that my revulsion would increase 100 folds if I had to physically care for them (ie. changing their diapers) like Nina had and is doing. I distinctly remember when the disgust and revulsion was noticed by me, which got me making a timeline. I’ll post it to my livejournal one day.
From what I've read, many narcissist parents have crossed the line into sexual abuse. For others, they were only one notch away from full blown sexual abuse. One young man wrote how his n-mother would come into his bedroom and rub his legs. When he tells her to stop she gets mad, of course, but at least that's as far as it went.
Iradessa: How awful for your dad to behave like that! I'm so sorry. It's hard enough losing a friend so young, but to have a "parent" now care....it's just horrid behaviour.
I hope your battle with alcoholism is going well. One of the things I've noticed about many ACONs is that we often find damaging coping devices to handle the terrible feelings caused by having an n parent or parents.
The whole thing about sexual weirdness...I've felt some of that, too. I've pretty much written abuse off as nonsense in my case, but there were other weird things. I suppose it shouldn't be surprising considering that to the narcissist everything is about them, why shouldn't that include sexuality?
Ella
I've had sexual weirdness with both of my parents. My father is always telling me about his sex life. The last time I talked to him, he explained how he sometimes loses his erection during sex because of his pain condition. I just always try to change the subject because I'm always afraid that I'll be accused of being too sensitive.
My mother was OBSESSED with my breasts growing up. She brought attention to them every single chance she got. She made fun of the fact that I developed early and that they were much larger than other girls. She was always trying to get me to wear minimizing bras and made me feel totally ashamed about myself. I mostly wore turtle necks and vests because of it, but if you heard her talk, I was letting them hang out for the world to see. She would get very angry that I wouldn't let her see me nude too. I mean, like if I was going to the bathroom or taking a shower, she became furious that I locked the door. She come in and open the shower curtain to talk to me (up until the time I left for college). I was always so mortified.
She has about told me things she's done sexually with my step-father too. It all disgusts me.
i think the 'sexual weirdness' topic is going to be a pandora's BOX (i can't wait for the errant righteous non narc affiliated to pipe in) hah!
i'm honestly so upset by janesdesks post... i wish there was a way to help you find that straw... the one that breaks the camels back... and just sets you into a whole new world where you see things like you're reading a book... and you can turn the page & close the book... AND NOT REOPEN IT. because that's sooooo what you need to do.
my father's realized... things are different... he actually CALLED for my birthday... ON my birthday to wish me a happy birthday this year (usually that's not something that's remembered) he still never actually SAID happy birthday... he said, i'm calling because its your birthday and i'm wishing you many returns (that's not happy birthday) but ok... he then when into all the ailments, but i only answer the phone when he calls if i'm commuting (on the train there's spotty service) or if i'm traveling home from the train (again, spotty service) and well... it works "i'm goin to lose you, we're going into a tunnel or up the hill... just a tip for anyone) BUT... after the ailments he goes into how he "canny even get around these days" (in the first floor apartment we set him up in) so now he says he's been lookin at assisted living places, oh which have you looked at? haha... he hasnt looked he is looking at the brochures i left for him a year ago.... and then he starts hinting... he wants me to go w/him to look at them.... oh they're sooo bloody confusing, they's all bloody schiesters, blah blah blah... and i'm not biting.... he mentioned ALL the places that i got him brochures on... like he's RESEARCHED THEM himself... haha.
he actually asked if i'd go w/him to look at them.
i told him between work, the baby and the fact that we live an hour away.... i'm not gonna be able to help him w/that. and then i kinda conceeded and said, if he needed me to call any place for him... i could make a call or two...
it's so weird... it was almost normal.
oh but he forgot to thank me for the fathers day gift (which wasnt a fathers day gift, it was a grandpas gift on fathers day technically)... till i said something about my husbands first fathers day... OH YEAH... thank you for the picture (i knew he'd like it, he was in it) HAHAH
You must BE STRONG when dealing with a narcissistic parent. You must be doubly and triply strong when you've got two of 'em.
Mine live less than five miles from me. Haven't seen or heard from them in 2.5 years, ever since I said, "No more of this." I'd said it before, but it didn't get heard--the same thing you're talking about in this post. I'm not sure what changed, but two Xmases ago, it would appear that I in fact did get through...
The thing to remember about narcissists is that they have very selective listening. They will manage to hear anything that hints at a scrap of their superiority, but anything that suggests they may be flawed, wrong, or otherwise less than perfect will be treated as though it was not said. If you persist, the next step is rage, insults, and then--if you hold your ground--cutoff, or threats if that's the way they have gotten used to treating you.
Personally, I could not be enticed to consider caring for my parents as they age at this point. There is no amount of filial responsibility that dictates I am somehow obligated to spend time around people who display nothing but disrespect and contempt toward me. As you mentioned in a previous post, people say, "But they're your parents!"
I say, "Are they? Being a parent is more than just having sex and popping out a kid which is then resented for the rest of its life."
Thus far no one's come up with a meaningful response to this. People usually let the matter drop at that point--which is better for them, I'd say.
Stay strong,
The Wily
Wily,
Thank you for your clear and strong words of advice! Those of us with aging narcissistic parents need to hear a well articulated counterpoint to general cry of, "But they're your parents" and honor and obey them, which is drummed into our heads!
Nice to hear from you!
This is a remarkable topic. Nina's post is funny enough, but the comments! They are cracking me up on a day when I have been feeling a bit more down than usual. I had to actually go pull out the notebook I had been keeping where I was writing down all the stuff I wanted to remember, as it happened, so that I would always have the reminders that no, it's NOT me, it's HER.
I have four kids. My mother doesn't know a single one of their birthdays, except for the month they're in (possibly the season). The exception is the birthday of my first, which was on her anniversary, so instead of coming 200 miles to see me when I went into labor, she stayed and celebrated her anniversary with my stepfather, and saw my first baby about six weeks later. My mother-in-law was the one who drove to be with me in the hospital. Anyway, my Mom still thinks it's a great story that of all days to "pick" to have my baby, I "picked" her anniversary, when they had RESERVATIONS to keep. Oy.
Our conversations would so often be like:
Mom: "What did you do today?"
Me: "I took the kids to their practices."
Mom: "You know I saw the greatest movie yesterday that you MUST go see, as soon as you can."
Always, of course, some R-rated foreign film, which, newsflash, isn't something I can take the kids to, not that the movies she likes play within anywhere outside of a few art theaters somewhere in the nearest city, 50 miles from where we live.
Up until this past year, I was the chair of my regional school committee. I won three town elections over 6 years to get and stay on the committee, and was elected chair by the other 8 members for the last 3 years. Yet, just last summer Mom asked if I "still volunteered at the school."
She is clueless about what anyone else is doing, unless it's something she feels she has input on, and then she'll seize upon that subject like a dog with a bone. Fortunately, she'd always back off if you called her bluff and started asking her questions back. As soon as she wasn't an authority on something, she'd shut up fast.
If it's not in her edition of what's important in the world, it doesn't exist.
Hi, me again. I hadn't read to the bottom of the comments before posting. Janesdesk, let me chime in with the others that there is some weirdness there.
I have to raise another hand as part of this club you don't want to belong to. My mother is the one I'm struggling with now, but before now, ten years ago, it was my father. He and my mom divorced when I was about six, and HE was a piece of work.
No, I don't "recall" being abused, but I recall the sex comments (Dad to me when I was 9: "boys will only want to get into your pants.") When my thoughtful n-mother sent me and my sister to stay with my Dad, he slept and walked around stark naked. Sat and watched TV stark naked. Sometimes he'd put a dishtowel on his private parts, but I wondered if that was just to catch the bits of food that fell when he was eating on the couch.
He kept a stack of P-mags next to his bed, and another dishtowel. That stood up by itself, if you get my drift.
It was a rule in Dad's house that you could not close the one bathroom door. You had to see and smell him go when he did, unless you left the house. I used to either pee in the woods or hold it all in until he left the house. I would go without showers because he would somehow ALWAYS have to go to the bathroom while I was in the shower. He would come in there and sit with his Reader's Digests while I was in there in the shower. Was he waiting for me to get out?
I rarely saw him after I left for college, maybe once every few years. He came to visit, like my mom (they didn't speak to each other) several weeks after my first child was born. He slept naked on my couch, and something snapped in my head at last. I let him leave, and wrote him a goodbye letter. I haven't seen or spoken to him since.
My sister still sees him, inexplicably, and told me that the last time he visited her, he asked where the local x-rated store was, so that he could see "what they had different from his regular store." She said "Dad, what, are you a star customer or something?" Supposedly he looked at her, angry and totally indignant, and said "so what the hell if I am."
How ugly this all sounds as I am typing this out, and how embarrassing to have to realize that I have exaggerated nothing.
Fortunately, when I cut my Dad out of my life completely, for these reasons I didn't have to go through too much guilt. You don't have to question your perspective to know that it's not normal to do what my Dad did.
JULIE: Welcome to this nice, funny little community that has developed thanks to the miracle of the internet.
Yes! The stories are absolutely the best...the more detailed the better...the ones with dialogue are especially enlightening.
For so long, we've felt so alone. Who could possibly understand such weirdness but other adult children of narcissists?
The story you told of your mom choosing her anniversary over being with you for the birth of her first child is so incredibly sad. She waited SIX WEEKS to see her first grandkid??? Ouch. I imagine you always took a backseat to her "priorities."
OMG. Your father. That's all I can say. Also, freaky comes to mind. CONGRATULATIONS on the NC. Really. That's just not right. No doubt there. I can see where once the light bulb goes off, why you wouldn't have any guilt.
SRA!!!! I used to love those.
My sister and I call conversations with my mother "MOMOLOGUES". You're lucky if you can get a word in. Should you be lucky enough, you'll be interrupted rather quickly.
Love your blog.
Having been in intense therapy for 18 mos, I discovered today that BOTH my parents are Ns and was blown away by the issue of them being unable to "hear" when we're talking to them. MY mom has insisted for years that she is hard of hearing. Even got herself a little service doggie to prove to the world that she is disabled - but not so disabled that she needs help. Just attention. And lots of it. I love her little doggie but HATE that she gets upset when we don't validate her "hearing" problem. So many times she hears perfectly fine. Then all of a sudden, she just can't understand what we're saying no matter how many times we repeat it. She just gets tons of attention from all that. Really annoys the HELL out of all of us. Anyway, I'd write more but I'm new here and not sure if i'm even allowed to post or whatever :) sorry to post as anonymous but the only blogger id i have is for my website.
It feels so sad and lonely to have a n-parent. My mom has strong n-tendencies and it feels like I'm still getting to know me at 38 years old. Because I associated that with love, I found and married someone who has n tendencies and grew up with a n-dad. For so long I put up with the poor listening, the selfish behavior and lonely conversations. Then I started recovering me and I got ANGRY! I said "no more" and decided to reclaim my right to have a happy, fulfilled life. When my husband acts in a selfish, inconsiderate way, I remind him of my right to my own happiness without being used up by him. He has responded well to this and encourages me to advocate and protect myself. We both have gotten our own counseling independently and together which has helped tremendously.
I'm concerned about either of us mirroring our n-parent. His dad has a lot of n-tendencies and is so difficult for me to be around. He just recently moved to the area despite our lack of obvious enthusiasm because it is "God's will". (This is often a conveinent way to steam roll over someone with minimal protest-who wants to oppose God??!?) My husband told him he wanted to go over some expectations and concerns about their move. This was agreed on by both my husband and his parents. So after they arrived, my husband addressed the need to talk and here is the dialogue:
husband: Dad, I'd like to talk with you and mom tomorrow night.
Dad: I need to check on my mother
husband: Do you think you would have time tomorrow night?
Dad: What do you want to talk about?
husband: Some expectations and conerns we have
Dad: I don't have any concerns or expectations
husband: Well we do and I'd like to talk about them. Is tomorrow night a good time?
Dad: I don't really have anything to talk about. I think there's nothing to say. I've got some things to check on.
husband: I'd like to talk. Would tomorrow night work for you?
Dad: Well I guess.
I find he aggrees with someone to get his way but then feigns ignorance or tries to silence the other person with distracting them from what's really going on. I don't trust him and see him to be a manipulating individual who will take whatever he can to survive despite the damage it does to his own children. It repulses me.
My mother does the same thing. She just passes right by me. I have lots of stories there but this is enough for now. It just hurts to be ignored and invalidated. My husband has been more impulsive and inconsiderate with the arrival of his dad. Do you see this in yourselves where the stress of the n-parent causes you to mirror some of the odd behavior of the n-parent?
I ache just reading the stories of you all. I want to validate and celebrate your lives as I know you've been used to hold up your parents. I want to be present with my kids and really listen. It is so hard to do when I am still wanting someone to validate, mother, and listen to me.
Thank you for this blog. It is healing to express and know I am not alone with this pain.
I am currently reading Karyl McBride's book, Will I Ever Be Good Enough, about n mothers and their daughters. Reading these comments, I finally understand that my n mother's refusal to get a hearing aid goes beyond vanity. Without one, she can dominate and become the focus of every conversation...constantly interrupting, having everything repeated, etc. I have not understood why anyone would not want to hear, but then I realized that she's never listened unless she's the focus of the conversation. Thanks for your blog.
Boy....do I have a good story here. Anyone, anyone who can shed any light on this, please jump in.
My mother is narcissistic and my father not so much but gave her unconditional support (co-dependency) for her behavior. I had a breakdown about 10 years ago ( I am now almost 58) and my path to wellness included a very healthy move 1 1/2 hours away. Close enough to be in touch, but far enough to give myself time to heal.
Within the past 2 years my parents, at about age 80 finally woke up to the fact that myself and my three brothers avoid them like the plague. To their credit, they have changed their ways and they and we have made peace with each other as have two of my brothers. The third brother, unfortunatly, carries his bitterness like a neon banner and has not learned how to ask what he needs from them, or maybe they are not able to listen to him....??
I have one daughter soon to be 40 and she had a complete breakdown the day before new years. She is on her second divorce and a string of not so good choices in relationships, one daughter age 18 who moved out with her boyfriend and likely will not graduate from HS this spring. The little girls are 2 and 5. Her last husband was an illegal from mexico and he left in July, the new man moved into her house in November. She also has had much loss in her life in the past few years. Her father died suddenly and being very pregnant at the time could not go to see him befor his death nor attend the funeral. We have been divorced since she was 10 and he was never in the picture very much although they did keep in touch. She also lost her grandparents about the same time.
Her therapist is working with her on feelings of abondonment and I can fully understand where that is coming from with her. She feels abondoned by me and we are working on that together with the therapist. She also feels she always thought we were really close but now realizes we are not. I'm having a hard time with this one....all who are around us feel that we were close and I felt we had a good M/D relationship.
Unfortunately the new man she has chosen is very narcissistic. The therapist has recommended he move home but they aren't going to go there. He is on unemployment, pays child support for 3 children from two previous marriages. He has touched her inappropriately in front of me and her 18 year old daughter (I pretty much voiced my opinion on that horrible scenerio). He also is a very different person with me than he is with my daughter. Very childish, can't really carry on an adult conversation and of course the conversation is always about him/his alcoholic mother/aunts and uncles fighting over the will before grandpa is even gone, etc., etc., etc., I've made myself probably too clear to my daughter (and so have my parents)that we do not approve of this relationship. We keep asking her to slow it down (there is an engagement ring involved) and follow the advice of her therapist. We're NOT asking her to break up with him, just slide back to a healtheir dating pattern.
A little about my daughter. She is intellegent, put herself through college, has a good job in the health industry, lives in a 5000 sf new home and has wisely invest several thousand from her inheritance in retirement. Two of the three girls have $10000 accounts for education set up by my parents, who can afford most anything they want.
She is currently having financial problems and my parents and I have helped in the past month to the tune of about $1500. We are reluctant to give more because we feel we are supporting the new man and not she and the little girls and we would like to see him move home as the therapist suggests. The therapist told me Annette is not strong enough to do this yet.
Do we support the freeloader or tell them if he is there 7 days a week they need to figure out the finances themselves? He could save $150 in child care expense each week if he choose to, and he did just that in December. Now, it does not seem to be an option.
Now, here is my real dilemma. My daughter has turned into someone I don't know. In the therapists office last Monday she called me a liar and a bitch. She also has lashed out at me in many other ways that are not her. I feel like she is drawing me into the same pattern of N disfunctionalness that my parents had me in. I really don't want to go there with her.
Although I want to be a part of her healing process I can't let myself be drawn into that darkness again. How do I help her without damaging myself?
its my first time reading your blog. its wonderful but i am sorry that you have N parents. :(
i totally feel you. my mother has strong N tendencies, and she never listens during conversations. she seldom looks right into my eyes, even she lets me finish my sentences at times, she is just waiting for her turn to talk about herself. but most of time, she wont even let me finish my sentence. i always thought that she lacks communication skill but now knowing that she could be a N, everything seems to make clear sense for me.
Anonymous at 6:19 PM, I'm absolutely shocked about your experience with your parents - because I never knew there were others like my mother out there. The story you wrote about travelling with them and having to sleep in a cot at the foot of their bed just happened to me a week ago (I'm also in my 20s). Only 2 of my younger siblings shared the bed with my widowed narcissist mom, because I'm my mom's perpetual punching bag. SMDH
Someone else wrote a comment about this type of relationship being like being kidnapped, where after a certain amount of time, the kidnapper can just leave the door open and it would never occur to the victim to just try and make a run for it. I totally, totally agree.
Thank you so much for creating this blog, Nina.
E.N.
Sticks and Stones - An Emotional Abuse Survivor's Blog
http://theemancipatedsurvivor.blogspot.com
I have a narcastistic mother right now, and i never really understood what was wrong with her. While i hate to complain this is sort of what my chilhood has been like. I have never been able to talk to my mother about anything, she would never ever listen without yelling at me for having problems and quickly changing the subject to something about her. My mother yells at me to do things for her all the time, like if i am busy with an essay, she'll yell at me to get her coffee from the car, to make her breakfast, to clean the kitchen floor.
she would never buy me something that i would want. she insists that it is my fatehrs job to buy me shampoo, bedding, socks.... It is hard being a teenager of a narcastistic parent, but i am just glad i am out of that situation.
KISHY4COWS...
You're absolutely right. It's terribly hard being a teenager with a narcissistic parent. This is time when you're supposed to be developing your identity...as well as detaching from the parental units...all normal and healthy stuff. These difficult tasks are made ENORMOUSLY challenging by self-centered parents who are threatened by an increasingly independent teen. My own mother countered w/aggression, hostility...and loads of guilt. Sounds like your mother did/is by making you her sherpa (another commenter coined this phrase and it's just soooo dead-on!).
You have every right to complain.
In fact, you should...often...to try to identify your feelings about it...and her...so you don't end up doing what I and others did...repress...and suppress. The more honest you are about your feelings...the better off you will be. Unfortunately, there's a large, vocal contingent in boot-strap America who will happily tell you (us) to quit whining. Screw em!
I can totally relate to your entire blog, thank you for sharing everything. xx
As I've sometimes had to tell people, remembering what I said is not the same as really understanding what I'm trying to convey.
Wow. Your dad sounds just like my mom. Every conversation we've had has gone into one ear and out the other. I could tell her something important or she'd ether not listen or switch to what she wanted to say before finishing.
That's exactly what happens with my mom. Recently, I've learned that the only way to get her to actually pay attention is to either contradict her when she's going off on one of her rants or somehow try to displace her ego over mine.
My mom, starting in her late 70s, seems to have a borderline narcissist personality, now exacerbated by some dementia. She never seemed obviously inattentive or negligent in younger days, but my sister says she was always sort of that way, which rings true in hindsight. She's also driven almost entirely by emotion and sees logic as "unfair" in some cases. That part strikes me as dementia.
In recent years this manifests itself in refusal to accept advice on various technical things, like the wisdom of changing one's passwords after a mysterious router/WiFi "hack" that a relative could have done (possibly has all her passwords). She refuses to think he's capable of it and writes it off as a fluke, which could cause big risks with finance websites she relies on. The more I mention it, the more she sloughs it off. It doesn't help that others in the family are apathetic about computer security!
Her other main tendency is that you constantly have to repeat a point to keep her from drifting into unrelated world-affairs or your own shortcomings dating back decades. Thus, it can take hours to get basic tasks accomplished when her input is needed. The effort is draining and projects that might take minutes get put off for months. You have to worry about her getting emotionally offended if an inconvenient topic keeps coming up.
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