Tuesday, March 16, 2010

The Question of Forgiveness

Some people are big on the concept of forgiving. Some have said you need to forgive the person/persons who harmed you.

Then there are other concepts floating around...in the category of "Now What Do I Do With This Mess?" Some say we should try to understand the person who caused us so much grief.

When I've attempted to discuss the behavior of my narcissistic parents with select individuals, I'm often met with, "They didn't know any better; they were ignorant." This doesn't ring true. My aunts came from the same socioeconomic background and were loving, nurturing women.

My self-centered mother is long dead. While I felt sorry for her as I watched her suffer through Alzheimer's, frankly, I don't remember any authentic emotions of sadness or grief. When she started down dementia's spiral staircase, she spent most of the previous ten years giving me the cold, silent treatment for "abandoning" her to go away to college.

My father is fading fast with his dementia. I feel sorry for him, too. I know he wouldn't want to hang on in his terrible condition. Still, I don't feel any strong emotions...including hate. I used to loathe him...couldn't stand to even be in the same room with him. Okay, I still can't, but when I do spend time with him, I'm not a seething bag of resentment and fury.

Sometimes, I feel guilty I don't see him more often, but here's where the question of forgiveness comes in. I can't. I don't want to. I'd have to force myself to do it and I simply do not have the the will to overcome profound feelings of dread that accompany a visit. I can occasionally muster the energy to do so, but it does take its toll. He is well taken care of. I check on his welfare frequently. The woman who takes care of him is incredibly patient with his difficult behaviors (my father calls her and the staff the most horrible names you can imagine...his ability to lob insults is astounding).

So here's the deal. There are some things I could forgive. I could forgive...maybe...how my parents treated me as an adoptee. It was pretty bad (I have a whole blog trying to work out that one), but I could chalk it up to the total dysfunction of the Closed Era of Adoption. Then there's just bad parenting. Okay, my parents were raised poor and had lousy parents themselves and didn't know any better. Check.

Here's what keeps me from actively forgiving my parents....the knowledge that they actively made the decision to cut me off emotionally (my mother) and financially (my father) at a very young age. This was very punitive. When I asked for help....once (a loan of $75)....help never came.

If I said I could forgive my parents...and really feel it...I'd be lying. Maybe I'll work my way around to it one of these days. I don't walk around, in real life, an angry person. I reserve "my angries" for this blog.

So if not forgiveness...what the heck else is there?

44 comments:

mulderfan said...

If they didn't choose the path they took why was my father's TWIN BROTHER a sweet, gentle, non-judgmental man? Same genes, same upbringing, much worse war experience...unlike my father, he actually saw action and was injured! He even married my mother's younger sister, also same upbringing, similar genes. Go figure!

As far as forgiveness. First of all the bleeding hearts need to walk in my shoes...for over sixty years! Secondly, if I saw even the tiniest hint of remorse or even a slight change in behavior toward me I might just find it in my heart (I actually have one) to forgive.

For now, I'll take a page from my parent's play book and look out for #1...ME!

Nina said...

Mulderfan,

This is why some of us blog...to expand our horizons...to cast the net and see what comes back...and so I'm very glad to receive your POV on this one!

Hah! Bleeding hearts and forgiveness. It is interesting to consider. My mother was very religious...but never forgave ME for going away to school. Mmmm. I had never framed it that way.

Also...and I'm not sure why this is...there are some in the Forgiveness Or Bust Camp that aren't satisfied to forgive and forget themselves...they seem offended when some of us don't/can't make that choice and make all sorts of gloomy predictions.

It also just hit me over the head that on top of everything else...I'm still struggling with forgiveness as a concept because I was raised Catholic (now lapsed)...and that's just drummed into you.

I like your play book....

HWS said...

From what I have read- you are going above and beyond. I have gone to confession for this one a few times- basically I have come away with- you don't wish them ill or try to hurt them, so pray for them and let it be.

Yous show with your actions- that's the truest form of "forgiveness." Best I am doing is not speaking to them because it is fruitless.

Nina said...

Hey HWS...

"you don't wish them ill or try to hurt them, so pray for them and let it be."

Wow. Really. Double wow.

It seems there IS middle ground between forgiveness...and remaining in a state of perpetual turmoil. Framing it like this never, ever occurred to me. Thank you!!!

Hold Fast said...

Oh how I have struggled with forgiveness and the seething hatred that sometimes rears its head.

My POV. Forgiveness is not just given to the abuser, it is earned. I feel if the abuser is not asking for forgiveness and sconfessing they did something wrong, then no forgiveness is necessary. If h*ll would ever freeze over and the abuser would ask for forgiveness, different story. Forgiveness should be granted but the abuse does not have to be forgotten...........ever. The forgiveness can be given for not knowing they were mentally ill but now being able to acknowledge it.

Nina, I think a more important action would be to forgive yourself for not being able to forgive, especially if there has been no appology.

Anonymous said...

Great blog! I just found it recently, and have been enjoying reading older posts.

I have trouble with forgiveness, too--also feeling like it needs to be earned. If the person can't think of what they've done as wrong, much less admit it, it's hard to get real forgiveness going.

The closest I've found is a combination of compassion and what I'd probably call forbearance. You can understand where the other person is coming from, even if you don't like their behavior at all. (And shouldn't.) Understanding why they've behaved so hurtfully helps. And, with my narcissists, it's easy to see how they've been making their own private hells through their behavior. (They live in pretty scary worlds, even if those worlds only exist between their own ears.) Combined with the past abuse that helped them turn into narcissists, that helps me have some compassion. Which is very different from excusing, much less "forgiving and forgetting".

Throwing in the forbearance, I'm just recognizing that they are the way they are, and there's nothing to be done about it. You don't have to continue to get sucked into it once you recognize what's going on, but there's no changing them or their behavior. Continuing to worry about it and let them jerk you around in your own mind isn't going to help anybody.

I hope that made sense. :) It's not easy, but I think it works better than trying at forgiveness, per se.

Bess said...

I can forgive lots of people for lots of things, but I don't forgive my nfather. I look at it as self-preservation - and to those that think I'm being small-minded about it, I can easily remember that they haven't experienced what me and my sister have, and I forgive them for it. Some things just are unforgiveable in my book; it's easier to live with not forgiving someone than having to remember constantly why you had to forgive them in the first place.

Anonymous said...

As someone once said, "some people need to come with a Warning Label". I believe this. If there was any remorse on the part of the N, it may be easier to forgive. And for those who sympathize with the Ns - they have not walked in my shoes.

Jeff said...

I've tended to find that the question of forgiveness arises through the uncertainty that full responsibility can be expected. The comment left by Hold Fast touches on this:

'The forgiveness can be given for not knowing they were mentally ill but now being able to acknowledge it.'

Is the n-individual (for we are talking about an individual and not simply a category) , if they are 'mentally ill', mentally well enough to recognise how ill they are? Is their responsibility 'diminished' in the way that some defendants claim in legal cases?

The trouble I find is this: one moment I'll make statements about my parents based on how medical categories shed light on their behaviour, then the next, having suggested they were in some way ill, I'll make other statements that suggest they had the same mental faculties as anyone else, as though they were no different and therefore not ill according to medical categories. This doublethink leaves me alternating on their level of responsibility, whether they had the capacity to do any differently than they did, and therefore whether they can be forgiven. To categorise them while assuming they were as responsible as the next person doesn't feel right somehow, as though I'm trying to have it both ways.
The difficulty with forgiveness may be this entrapment between the intellectualisation in understanding their behaviour in medical terms and the inevitable emotional turmoil in having had parents that denied parental love with impunity. The intellectual side relies on models whose helpful explanations explain away the parent's awareness. The emotional side then craves justice from a defendant whose capacity has just been called into question.

Susie said...

I don't think that you HAVE to forgive your abusers/N-parents for you to move forward. I think that healing is ultimately a very personal journey. Some people NEED to forgive their N-parents and others don't.

Narcissists, so far, have done nothing to deserve our forgiveness. Moreover, as ACONs we tend to extend ourselves emotionally. We were raised to form ourselves around them, so it is more difficult to disconnect ourselves or pull out emotionally. I know that I need to wean myself off responding to their needs. For me, forgiveness causes me to continue to provide narcissistic supply, even in their absence!

In my opinion, my N-parents need to make amends before I can extend forgiveness or at least admit that they have a problem in the first place. In my relationship, they have taken no responsibility for their actions, no matter how many times I've tried to begin a dialogue. As a person who had/have to live with N's, there is a point where their disorder becomes irrelevant. Yes, their self-absorption is not necessarily a conscious act, but until they take some responsibility for their actions and seek treatment/get help, I can't continue to pacify them with my willingness to be a doormat. Moreover, validating statements (regardless of their truth) such as, "They don't know any better", "They're not aware of what they're doing" continues to excuse their behavior. Perhaps my unwillingness to extend forgiveness is a way for me to keep some power...? Regardless, my plan to cut these people off entirely puts my needs and wants first for once.

-Susie

appleTea said...

I want to start by thanking you Nina from the bottom of my heart for blogging and sharing with us all. I have felt so alone until now.

I am a 41 year old woman who has struggled with the aftermath of having abusive, narcissistic parents. I had a breakdown 1 year ago and am still in therapy. This Blog is like a lifeline for me.
I have finally cut all contact with my parents as it is harmful to my health to evven be near them. I also struggled with the "forgive and forget" philosophy that all well-meaning yet abuse-ignorant people try to shove down one's throat. They seem to think it's an easy quick fix. I choose not to forgive as my abusers have never asked for it or acknowledged that any abuse ever existed. I am the reason they got mad, I should be thankful for the roof over my head and food on the table. I don't hate them, I just simply do not care about them at all.

This may seem like rambling, but

Susie said...

Also, I forgot to mention that N's LOVE to use the concept of "forgiveness" to meet their own needs. I think that much of our unwillingness to forgive is related to abusers' ability to exploit this concept.

For example/personal anecdote: During a family Christmas (that I was essentially blackmailed into attending), my parents gave each of the kids a photo album with all the things that they "liked about us". Mine included things like, "Your love of the outdoors, you're athletic" etc.. (they really stretched with a few of these 'qualities' and it seemed like they didn't even really know me at all. What about my art? It was never mentioned.)

At the end of the photo album was a message that stated, "We are so proud of the adult that you have become, however, you will always be our baby. If we could have one wish this Christmas is would be that our children would realize the strength that lies within a family. There will be times when we need each other; let's begin to forgive, forget and rebuild."
When everyone opened their albums, no one said anything. There was no discussion. It was just expected that we would all be touched and automatically forgiving. No. Not that easy. They didn't stop think that maybe MY Christmas wish was that we'd have a real adult conversation about what happened or a real apology. This was in 2006 and to this day, they still deny that there was abuse in the family. It is so bizarre, but I know it is a way of trying to snake dodge taking responsibility for the abuse.
This album is a powerful reminder of their inability to be receptive to our feelings, needs and desires and REAL forgiveness is not possible.

-Susie

Nina said...

Hold Fast,

Maybe it's the seething hatred that rears its head that is such an uncomfortable feeling. How can "niceish" people hate...especially parents? It's so.....taboo.

I like the concept of forgiving oneself.

Nina said...

UROCYON,

Nice to meet you!

Forbearance! Now that is a word rarely used but seems SO well suited to dealing with the narcissistic parent that I'm surprised it isn't commonly used! In a way, I think I've done that...a lot...but didn't have a word for it. It's the other 25% of the time that I'm a seething bag of resentment that is worrisome...hopefully, I can stretch forbearance to cover that ugly scarred bit...like a bandage...for a nice, workable solution!

Thank you!

Nina said...

BILLIE,

From what I've read of your situation...I believe that, for some of us, a conscious act of forgiveness would feel, somehow, like another violation/humiliation...and definitely not sincere.

It's NOT small-minded to choose not to forgive...because it's something we've actually thoughtfully considered...and rejected as non-workable!

Nina said...

3/18 ANONYMOUS,

Your comment that N people should come with a warning label made me giggle!

This is true. From what I've read, some n's are charming at first and suck people in. However, my father was so out-there, so "off" that it was as if he DID have a warning label on his forehead because I could SEE other people's reaction to him...very negative!

Nina said...

SUSIE,

This sooooo resonates...and it was so well put, thank you...I think what you wrote-in quotes-is why the question for forgiveness seems to trouble me periodically...that it's yet another action I have to take in regards to my father because it was always me having to do stuff!

As for the "weaning off" period...I remember spending a whole year trying not to respond to my father's every phone call, every drama...it was like trying to rewire myself....I totally get how difficult this is!!!

"Moreover, as ACONs we tend to extend ourselves emotionally. We were raised to form ourselves around them, so it is more difficult to disconnect ourselves or pull out emotionally. I know that I need to wean myself off responding to their needs. For me, forgiveness causes me to continue to provide narcissistic supply, even in their absence!"

Nina said...

Well, thank you appleTea! It's so nice to wake-up, log-on...and seem such a nice comment as yours!

"I choose not to forgive as my abusers have never asked for it or acknowledged that any abuse ever existed. I am the reason they got mad, I should be thankful for the roof over my head and food on the table."

The point you make...that parents haven't acknowledged any abuse (or think they were good parents and that we were ungrateful louts) frames the question of forgiveness in a new light. What is there to forgive? They put food on the table and a roof over our heads so what, exactly, is there to forgive?

Having seen how my cousin's health and well-being was being compromised by her toxic mother...I applaud you in going no-contact to preserve yours. My dad drove me crazy...but he wasn't as malignant as some others I've read about. Still, going no-contact has got to be extremely painful and difficult...

Nina said...

SUSIE...

The notion of an articulate narcissist capable of some subtlety is rather scary. My own father had an eighth grade education...was inarticulate and had no writing skills...it was all so basic and verbal and...primal.

What you...and probably many others...deal with is a whole additional level of weaponry: cleverness. I imagine, as a result, you're dealing with lots of mind-games...such as the scenario with the Xmas albums. At first glance, it seems like a lovely idea. In context of your experience, it's manipulative...and harder to combat. I know it would take some time for me to figure out "what's wrong with this picture."

As you wrote...it was like peeking into a whole other world I was unaware of: the clever narcissistic parent. While mine was aggravating...at least he was straightforward b/c he was so childlike, needy. Yours, on the other hand, are like a newer version of video game...with lots more levels to "get through."

Anonymous said...

I love your blog - thank you for starting it! As for forgiveness, sometimes I think I've managed it - for about a day. Then I'm angry again and think of the twisted things things they did "for my own good" and the terrible mind games they played. I cannot forget. Like almost everyone here, they insist that they did nothing wrong. They are right. I'm still not totally positive my mother and father truly have the disorder, but they have serious problems. And I've been recovering for a long time. I too had a breakdown a few years ago - anxiety from a terrible comment from my mom combined with an OCD attack. But it was a blessing because I finally got help and learned that my parents were a big part of the problem. So, do I forgive? No. Because I still have to protect me and now my children.

Carolyn's Crafts said...

Thank you for this blog. I just found it and I am looking forward to reading it. I just went no contact with my Narcissistic mother the end of December and I certainly need this blog.

Nina said...

March 19 Anonymous,

Oh my gosh...the very day that you wrote your comment...I found a used copy of Alice Miller's "For Your Own Good: Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence."

Have you read it? It's excellent...I'm planning on rereading it as it's been some time.

Good thoughts to you...Nina

JAJ said...

When somebody proves to be a blabbermouth, you don't tell them any secrets. Is this unforgiving? No, it's common sense. You remember people who make a habit of abusing you, and make sure they can't abuse you in the future. Sometimes, the only way to do that is to move away from them and cut off all contact - they're just that toxic.
Sometimes you just have to avoid telling them secrets, lending them money, going out for drinks, etc. Other times you have to run like hell and never look back.

Nina said...

JAJ,

Definitely agree! However, the route one takes seems less clear and more difficult when those toxic people are your parents. As much as they are problematic in our lives, they are the only ones we have...and the concept of giving up on them is one hellava big hurdle to jump over.

Sweet Violet said...

My mother was a malignant narcissist, highly intelligent, manipulative, and gleeful in her successes at getting what she called the "upper hand" in any interaction. I was one of her primary targets (I was the "scapegoat child") and my growing up and moving away didn't slow her down one bit.

Some of the things she did...and the legacy of harm she created...are truly unforgivable. I spent five years in therapy and have given this topic a great deal of thought and emotional processing and have come to this conclusion: forgiveness is possible ONLY when the transgressor acknowledges his/her wrong-doing and expresses remorse for it. Absent this, anything we might want to call "forgiveness" is merely condoning...and encouraging the continuation of...behaviours that hurt others.

I shall not forgive my mother: her abuses have hurt three generations of my family and continue to cause dissension and hurt among family members, even through she has been dead for a decade. In her opinion, she was never wrong and if her actions brought about hurt to others, it was THEIR fault, not hers.

I am not bitter or angry...when she died I simply heaved a sigh of relief that, after 50+ years of staying out of her way, the fear was over. But the hurt she brought upon me, my children, and grandchildren continues to this day. Some things are just not forgivable.

SHAKY JELLY said...

Thank you all so much!!!!!!!
I'm 43 with two N's [is that right?] Father was diagnosed with terminal cancer over 2 years ago and given 6 months, he's still with us, Mother is the most controling manipulative .... I walked away finally 8 weeks ago after being ignored for two days and having the door shut in my face..wrong move they rang yesterday to say they think I'm despicable and as far as they are concerned I'm dead I have no idea what brought it on..this time..I usually get the treatment if I plan a holiday or something for my family, [two great girls and a fantastic husband of 19 years. I can't believe there is a word for it and others like me, having spent my life being told how paranoid I am. I come across as sooo confident and outgoing but scratch the surface and you find a quaking jelly in a shaky mould. The N's are perfect parents and have never put a foot out of line my father is the most capable person who can"break every bone in my body with one hand tied behind his back" and all the women fancy him even now, I am a prostitute and a fat slag and my mother used to be the most beautiful woman in the village and turned heads. This is their legacy and I've not seen it written down before. Blimey!!
I can't beleive that these people can think scenarios through so much so that you're up to your neck in a situation before you know what happended. My kids detest them but I've spent all my life trying to seak their love and approval and they hate me. I need to stop now 'cos I'm saying far too much for the first time and it's all bubbling out incoherently

Celera said...

Maybe "forgive" is one of those words, like "love" that are used in so many ways that they don't have a clear meaning anymore. Unless, I suppose, you have a religion that gives you a specific definition.

So I won't say I've forgiven my Nmother, or my weak father for his complicity. What I can say is that I have moved past the place where the thought of them makes me angry or resentful or sad. Usually. I have had all those feelings, but they are worn down to nubs, so to speak. I think this is good. I have a "right" to be angry, and that anger is/was healthy. But if I live in anger, then I only ruin my own life.

I have come to have some empathy for how frightened my mother must have been of the world. This is not to excuse her behavior, but I think I understand it better now, emotionally as well as intellectually.

So, I don't dwell in anger, and I do see how much pain she must have been in, while still setting limits on what I will and won't allow myself to get drawn into.

And now that she has recently passed away, I find some peace in my own belief that there is justice and mercy in the universe and that where ever she is now, she is learning to be stronger and wiser and kinder than she was able to be during her 83 years on this earth. I don't think that this peace is an acheivement on my part, it is a gift from the universe or God or something, so that I can carry on with being the person I want to be.

Nina said...

CAROLYN'S CRAFTS...I responded, but something musta happened to it b/c it didn't post..anyway...welcome. It must have been a difficult decision to go no contact...

SWEET VIOLET,

I think the idea of forgiveness is occasionally tempting...and slightly troublesome...if our parent - as in my case - was needy, mostly neglectful and occasionally awful. If I had a parent who was a malignant narcissist, as you had, I suspect I wouldn't spend some much time and energy on the question of forgiveness...I've seen such a narcissist in action and saw how wide a swath of destruction she created...and how plain mean she could be...I know I couldn't forgive someone like that!

I'm glad you shared how you felt after your mother died...this is a difficult subject to address honestly...I think I'll breathe a sigh of relief when my dad dies, too...I've always felt shackled to him.

Nina said...

SHAKY JELLY,

Your description of life w/your parents made me quiver!

I guess I'm kinda lucky in that my father did not present as normal to outsiders...people were put off by them...so at least I got some third party confirmation even though no one ever said anything to me about him.

I think it's far worse to have your situation - and from what others have shared, it's common - to have such, well, "two-faced" parents.

When I read your comment, I was struck anew by just how exhausting these experiences are...how we anticipate dramas....try to ward them off to no avail...deal with being ignored, shut out or screamed at....week after week...month after month...year after year...it's ALWAYS something bad, bad, bad...never positive...no little breakthrough moments of a nice little chat. Blech. So I sympathize. It's a process emotionally distancing yourself from it all...have you begun that journey yet?

Nina said...

CELERA!!!

If anybody deserves some peace, it's you...after what you've been through.

I LOVE what you wrote.."so that I can carry on with being the person I want to be."

It's a wonderful reminder that some of us - okay, me - can try to do that while their parent is still alive...if (parental) dementia or geographical distances or no-contact makes that possible.

SHAKY JELLY said...

Nina thank you for your comment it gave me comfort. On the day I posted mine my father rang to say as far as he was concerned I was dead!! I still have no idea what it was I did to start this particular string off and my husband and girls were with me on the last day I visited. We had taken presents and cards for my father and some flowers for my mother as it was my fathers birthday. We were shouted at for being too early, 2pm as my mother hates getting out of bed before around 4pm, I'd had 3 days of having the phone put down on me prior to this...the flowers, which I was holding but couldn't bring myself to give to my mother because I feel physically repulsed by her, were discounted as "they will make the house look like a crematorium, don't you think we'll be there soon enough?"
Since it happended everyone has been so great to me and the one's who know them have said "they are odd though aren't they?" The feeling of fear and self doubt is still with me and I don't think I will feel at peace until they have left this realm. I have chosen to forgive ME for not being able to make it work and be a "good daughter" this is what they have made me feel for 43 years, I will not forgive them for that and for taking away my self worth. i find it fascinating that my daughters like coming home and telling me all about there day. I remember the feeling of terror as I walked towards the house as a young girl. What would the mood be today? Smothering sudo affection or total dislike and sarcasm. Can I clear something up from my last post? I'm not actually a prostitute or slag it's just what they called me, ha ha I know you probably all realise that but just wanted to make sure.
I've just ordered some of the books you've all suggested so maybe the shaky jelly can set a bit given time.

Anonymous said...

Nina, I'll have to look for that book (For Your Own Good...) - I'm sure it'll shed a lot of insight into my confusing past!! I just got back from a short trip w/ my N parents - my mom was okay, my dad, a nightmare. For the first time, my children were able to see for themselves, that my dad is causing so many of the problems - they understand that I only lose my temper with him, no one else (not even my mother who can be soooo cruel), and they can now see that that he insults every decision I make - they know who the real "difficult" one is. And to Shaky Jelly - I know what you mean about appearing okay on the outside, while hiding the insecurities and pain. I'm pretty sure my dad also claimed to be able to break every bone in my body - he certainly told me I should be shot and wished that I could stay at my college so he didn't have to be bothered with his 'difficult' child! It's good that other people notice your parent's behaviors - I think the worst is when they have that perfect front so no one believes you. That's what happened to me. It even took almost 20 years to convince my sister, who witnessed a lot of it. She always thought it was me. I did too, but didn't know what I was doing wrong. Now we both know better - keep believing in yourself!

roxtarc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I can see that I'm not alone here with the forgiveness problem. Last summer I stopped talking to my N-mom after I got her diagnosis from my therapist. I felt like I needed the space to really process through and recontextualize my childhood experience and my adult experience to the present. I was in a tremendous state of grief. I still am grieving, but the shock is gone. I know I'll never get the mother I thought I might get if if could just say or do the right thing. Saying good-bye to the mother I would never have turned out to be harder than any other loss to date.

My minister said that forgiveness comes in three parts. The first three parts are your responsibility and the last part is the offending party's job. So I decided to do my work. I process the feelings when they come up. I try to understand where she was coming from (i.e. mental illness), and then I try to open my heart to forgivenss. But it will never be complete because she will never accept responsibility for her actions and ask for forgiveness.

Recently, my n-mom lost her aunt and I called to give my condolences to my grandmother and n-mom on their loss. Suddenly the world shifted again. She started to call and email. Then she sent me an email asking if everything was back to normal. When I told her no and that I needed to continue my time away from her, she didn't respond.

For my dad's sake I kept hoping that there would be a time when I would be able to have a civil relationship with my mother, but after this recent episode, it is clear that I the relationship has to be all or nothing. She doesn't want a compromise. She wants to have this ideal mother daughter relationship where I do everything she says, think she's the smartest person on the planet, tell her all my secrets, love her more than my husband or my children, give her lavish gifts without expecting a thank you, bear her pain and disappointment with the appropriate amount of guilt for having not fixed up her life or been perfect for her in every moment, and on and on. But as we all know, it can't be done. There is no making this kind of person happy. The freedom is in not trying to anymore. I think the best that any of us can do in the way of forgiveness is know the truth of who they are and not feed into the illness with compliance OR hate. I still struggle with this. It still hurts to know that none of it will change and will probably get worse as she ages. But knowing the truth helps a lot because for the first time in my life, things make sense.

Natalia said...

"N's LOVE to use the concept of "forgiveness" to meet their own needs. I think that much of our unwillingness to forgive is related to abusers' ability to exploit this concept"

I think this is brillantly put. I've only recently started researching this topic having dealt with it for years with my mother. And yes, she would go as far as to storm into my room when I was younger or send me emails once I was older stating clearly that she EXPECTED ME to apologize for my reaction, behaviour etc. usually stemming from a ridiculous situation she herself had created and in which I had dared to stand up for myself or say something about her (this obviously followed by How could you do this to me? Crying, childlike behaviours aimed at making me feel bad etc.)
So yes as I grow older and am now in my late 20s I have learned to control interactive situations with my mother but even so, after an unusually hurtful lunch last weekend during which she took things to a whole new level, I am not sure if I can forgive that easily and move on. I feel something has shifted. I feel like her lack of empathy, her egoistical nature and her overall lack of interest in other pple than herself has finally made me fed up. Like this is wear it ends. I will not apologize. I will not give in to this endless vicious circle of me always being the bigger person.
Thank you for this blog, I have found a lot of comfort in reading this, because sometimes I still cannot help but blame myself for thinking my mother might be the one with the problem (how could I right? the problem is obviously with me)

Anonymous said...

Scott Peck who wrote the classic "The Road Less Traveled" also wrote a book about narcissism called "People of the Lie" and he believed some of their actions, especially as parents, heinous enough to be labeled evil because even when they're smart enough to know better and when given the chance to learn and change, they refuse to grow even when they see they're harming others. They just can't be bothered.

He also talked about 'cheap forgiveness'. Saying get over it things to ourselves or others like "they did the best they could", "but they're family, you have to forgive them", "that was so long ago, why do you still carry it around?" and not dealing with the feelings or holding them accountable is not really forgiveness -- it's denial and repression.

Since narcissists won't be held accountable, we have to detach from them by getting the protection and nurturing we need from ourselves and others who are capable.

I used to argue with my family about what I wanted from them as if they were capable of giving it (Hope springs eternal!). It just created more damage and ironically my hanging out with them and demanding something from them they didn't want to give (respect) was manipulative and unaccepting of who they are.

So I wrote boundaries and consequences I put together with a therapist. I gave them to my family, went over the rules and told them what would happen if they didn't follow them. No more arguments. Just rules and consequences. It's a whole new life, let me tell you!

When my mom crosses a line, I tell her. If she won't stop, I follow through with consequences. In my case I cut off contact with her until she apologizes. She really doesn't get it but she doesn't want to be cut off, so it successfully manages her behavior. We've gone a year without talking and it was a very peaceful year. So I don't need to her 'get it', I just need her to act civilly.

My dad, brother and sister refuse to play by the rules and believe bullying is their right. So I don't interact with them, haven't for three years now. They tell me and others I'm over sensitive and all the things bullies say about their victims. I don't care anymore to please them.

Usually when we're mad at someone we want them to do something to right a wrong. That's an attachment that is not going to be resolved with narcissists, they can't/won't do that.

Then we expect less of the narcissists. When we work on our healing they just don't matter so much anymore.

I'm also careful to work on being respectful with others and their boundaries. I learned a lot of bad habits growing up and now they're mine to change.

Life is so much easier and happier now!

Cinnamon said...

I'm working a lot on forgiveness right now, so I hope you all don't mind my posting my random thoughts on the subject here. Our n-parents have big impact on our thinking, and I'm working to unravel what I absorbed.

I just found this web page on forgiveness which I'm finding very helpful.

http://www.wikihow.com/Forgive

It's strange, since I effectively dealt with my relationships with my family romantic relationships from my past are coming up. Two former boyfriends contacted me within a week to talk about the past after decades! That's not just a coincidence.

I thought I had forgiven those people but apparently not, they were both very harsh and critical of me. But now I see clearly my own role. How my lack of exercising judgment and the need to always be in a romantic relationship for company and validation rushed us into relationships I wasn't really and truly 'in'. They sensed my distance and it drove them nuts so they both picked on me to provoke a reaction. I never thought of myself as someone who used people, just the opposite, but now I see I have. I did love them and we had great times together, but not with the conviction you have when you're really in love. Luckily with those two I had the chance to apologize for my lack of real presence and let them know how grateful I was for the love they gave me (totally true).

And of course, they have to figure out what drove them to attempt to win the love of a woman who wasn't there for them -- and around and around it goes! :)

The tricky part is my desire to go back to others I've hurt and have a conversation to clear up the past now that I have more insight. I don't trust that impulse yet, it might be just me wanting to keep the connection or even continue the 'game'. My n-parents saw everyone as an extension and answer to their needs, and I learned a lot from them I need to unlearn. Need more time.

Also I read a really interesting book that approached forgiveness from the perspective of reincarnation. It's a fantasy retelling of Henry VIII and Anne Bolelyn. Anne gets to review her lives with Henry and others and think about what love and forgiveness means. The premise is there is no escape from the need to forgive and what that really means. The book points out we can heal the relationship with or without the other person's cooperation.

My challenge is forgiveness means letting go. Even when the relationship is bad, I have a hard time wanting to let go of the hope they'll come back and make it all right. Or that I'll get a second chance to get it right.

Cinnamon said...

I've found this page on forgiveness very, very helpful:

http://www.wikihow.com/Forgive

Cometilla said...

This is great! Finally i got the courage to create my blog, i hope it works. ok, my first blogpost response ever...

I wrote some VERY LARGE response to this issue. So if you like to take a pick, 'follow me' at:

http://cometilla-blog.blogspot.com/2010/07/this-is-response-to-narcissistic.html

it did it that way because my response was REALLY large, so I was very embarrassed to put directly in here.

ok, this is a 'piece' from it:

...

Look, first of all, people do tend to mixed up forgiveness with forget, and THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL. And is also not necessary to forget in order to forgive, in fact: I don't even recommend that (well that's me and my point of view).


If you forget, you may not learn from the experience, and you may repeat the mistakes. Yes: you. One of the biggest mistakes of children of narcissists: ALLOWING THEM TO AFFECT US! Is your right not to let your parents to abuse you! And you don't have to be violent, or anything really aggressive in order to achieve that. When you truly internalize that you're not 'taking any more of their garbage, you can convince yourself: 'that's what YOU think, which is different from what I think'.

...


nice to meet you all!!

bonsai said...

Forgiveness in the face of contrition from the person who's wronged you is a great thing to attempt tp accomplish.

Forgiveness in the face of someone who not only cannot change, but who admits no wrongdoing?

Folly.

Alexis said...

My N-C of a mother doesn't think she did anything wrong... so there is nothing to forgive. I turned out to be an absolute lost failure cus she was too overindulgent and never expected enough of me. She allowed me to make my own decisions and be my own person. Translation - extreme neglect.

I am never going to forgive her. I don't have to. I don't want to. I have every right to be angry at her and her enabling lap dog that never put himself on the line to protect his daughter.

Anonymous said...

This is a great topic and I hope I can contribute some learned wisdom about forgiveness of N parents and siblings. Let's start with forgiveness is a decision. It is a decision that we own. It is not a feeling, obligation, value or ideal, and most myths about forgiveness are based on one of these false foundations.

God has commanded us to forgive throughout the ages and Jesus instructed Peter to forgive others not seven times, but seven times seventy for the injuries that others caused us. That means that we may have to forgive someone 490 times for an injury before true forgiveness can be achieved.

The difficult part of forgiving N parents is that they cannot experience true remorse. They cannot possibly say the words "I'm sorry" or better yet "Will you forgive me?" This has probably never happened nor will it ever happen in their miserable lives. Waiting for the words "Will you forgive me" will only cause us pain and misery.

When the flood of unpleasant feelings and memories about my N Father overwhelms me, I make the decision to forgive. This decision releases me from my guilt and pain. It doesn't happen easily, but I have yet to forgive him 490 times for each time he beat me, humilitated me, tormented me and abused me. I'm probably looking to make about 490 million decisions to forgive him in my lifetime, and I still have a ways to go to get there.

Withholding forgiveness is what N parents do to maintain control over us. It is the only thing they understand about the concept of forgiveness. By making the decision to forgive my N Father, I am freeing myself from his bondage. It is not my concern that he does not discern forgiveness like I do. It is only my concern that I am preserving my own soul.

I hope this helps. We are not alone.

Anonymous said...

Agreed.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous @ May 24, 2010

The paragraph ..."For my dad's sake...." rang so true for me word by word that I had to thank you for the articulation.

I also hold gratitude to all others here, it's really making sense for the first time in 40 years & for the first time, I'm not feeling lonely!
Thank you!